WI Japan "Meijied" Earlier?

Basically, what would've happened if Japan had not decided to largely isolate itself from the rest of the world, in the 1700's, as well as tried to modernize itself earlier as well?

Would they try and expand their empire? Try and conquer places like Korea, Manchuria, the Phillipines, Indochina, etc.? Or would they have tried to get a piece of that "New World?"

So what do you all think would've happened?
 
Didn't the Japanese try to that but got beat by Korean turtle ships... not sure but I think this failed attempt at Imperalism contributed to Japan's decision for isolation.
 

Hnau

Banned
This is your best friend. I looked a long time to find that. Really good article, this one. Shows how the Japanese gradually began to realize that their isolation was not suiting them.

I believe the best way to begin an earlier 'Meiji' would to have the Tokugawa Shogunate destroyed shortly after sakoku is established. Perhaps under Tokugawa Ienobu? He seemed like a liberalizing kind of shogun, maybe he would work.
 
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I think the problem is going to be European technology just wasn't impressive enough even a few decades earlier. When Perry went to Japan the First Industrial Revolution had been completed and the Second IR on the way. He had steamships, a toy steam locomotive and all sorts of other IR age gadgets. It was pretty obvious Japan was far behind. Especially since the Japanese were aware that China recently lost the Opium War to the British.

There must be deep ingrained reasons why Japan went into seclusion in the first place or they wont have remained that way for so long.
 

Hnau

Banned
In some ways, the isolation strengthened the Japanese. It kept their culture intact and didn't introduce all of the destabilizing effects European interaction had in other 'colonial fringes'. It kept their religion secure, kept ideology strong in the emperor, and didn't make the Japanese dependent on European goods or subject them to drugs. You might see a weaker and more unstable Japan ITTL.
 
In some ways, the isolation strengthened the Japanese. It kept their culture intact and didn't introduce all of the destabilizing effects European interaction had in other 'colonial fringes'. It kept their religion secure, kept ideology strong in the emperor, and didn't make the Japanese dependent on European goods or subject them to drugs. You might see a weaker and more unstable Japan ITTL.

The question was not wether Japan opened up to foreign trade earlier than OTL, but wether they 'pulled a Meiji' earlier, i.e. Industrialization, and trade on Japanese terms. I do not think that the possibility of a spontaneous IR like in britain was very likely in Japan. Now, if some japanese merchant with favour amongst japanese leadership went to britain and experienced the IR, then who knows...

There's also the possibility of a Song China that survives the mongols, and manages to produce an IR. This would naturally lead to more industrialisation in Japan.
 
There must be deep ingrained reasons why Japan went into seclusion in the first place or they wont have remained that way for so long.

[FONT=&quot]I think it was the Dutch Christian missionary in 1543.

After they converted for a while, the Japanese decided that Christianity wasn't good after all AFTER seeing all those Western colonies and realized that when the Western powers decide to colonialize a country the start with assimilating the culture to something closer to their's.

After 1614, all missionaries were kicked out and the Dutch and Spanish merchants banned to trade in Japan except for some small island off Nagasaki. The Dutch merchants were frequently asked to step on the crucifix.
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[FONT=&quot]I think it was the Dutch Christian missionary in 1543.

After they converted for a while, the Japanese decided that Christianity wasn't good after all AFTER seeing all those Western colonies and realized that when the Western powers decide to colonialize a country the start with assimilating the culture to something closer to their's.

After 1614, all missionaries were kicked out and the Dutch and Spanish merchants banned to trade in Japan except for some small island off Nagasaki. The Dutch merchants were frequently asked to step on the crucifix.
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Portuguese (and some Spanish) Christians. They let the Dutch stay in Nagasaki specifically because the Dutch had never made any significant conversion attempts.
 
Yes, but they still made them step on the crucifix. The Bible was banned. That shows how isolationalist a country can just be.
 
How about having Oda Nobunaga dominating Japan instead of being assasinated by his vassal? He took a more liberal and friendly stands on Western Technologies (not westerners) then most of the daimyos at the time.
 
I think the problem is going to be European technology just wasn't impressive enough even a few decades earlier. When Perry went to Japan the First Industrial Revolution had been completed and the Second IR on the way. He had steamships, a toy steam locomotive and all sorts of other IR age gadgets. It was pretty obvious Japan was far behind. Especially since the Japanese were aware that China recently lost the Opium War to the British.

There must be deep ingrained reasons why Japan went into seclusion in the first place or they wont have remained that way for so long.

Exactly. Without steam engines it would be hard to even get to Japan, let alone endanger Japan in any way.

Westernizing is not a positive value in itself. Many cultures considered it an unpleasant necessity in order to save whatever they could of their own culture. The idea that anyone would have wanted to before it became necessary is Eurocentric and not realistic.
 
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