WI: Japan joins the Scramble for Africa

[spoonzandforkz]

Say Japan gets opened up by some European power much earlier than OTL, say sometime before the Napoleonic wars or in the post-Napoleonic era, they industrialise/modernise decades earlier than OTL, beat up some decaying European power like Spain, Netherlands or like Russia in OTL. This causes Japan to be recognised as a great power.

Could it get a piece of Africa? Certainly there is not much incentive for Japan to colonise Africa, but during the 19th century colonies were seen as sign of prestige.

Also, what would be the effects? There could be some butterflies regarding anything after 1850 for sure.

 

[John_Smith12]

It would depend on what part of Africa they take, how much they take, and how they utilise it.

If they take a piece of land contested by someone such as the UK or France then that could lead to a war later on the line which would not be good for them.

If they take a lot of land them that could annoy quite a lot of Europeans, not to mention be difficult to hold down.

The most likely way of this happening is a Japanese Congo they get via diplomacy rather than through war. That could be considerable benefit to them. Mainly through the resources they'd get and the potential man power gain.

 

[TRH]

I don't think they'd go for it unless they thought their position in their own neighborhood was secure first. And to do that, they'd need to make sure the situation in China was advantageous to them, given China's potential to overtake them with its size advantage. And unfortunately, interfering in China too heavily would probably put them on a collision course with Britain and France, where they'd be unlikely to win in the long run.

European powers felt safe enough to go to Africa because the continent was relatively peaceful after the Congress of Vienna. And most of the European wars that did happen during this time were problems for Austria, the Ottomans, or Russia, none of whom pressed claims in Berlin. Japan never felt like they had that immediate security, so I suspect they'd prioritize that well ahead of vanity projects halfway around the world.

 

[Dingus Khan]

Japan didn't colonize Africa for similar reasons that the Ottoman Empire didn't colonize America; they lacked geopolitical interest or ability in doing so. Africa would be pretty far from Japan's sphere of interest too.

 

[Odinson]

Could the Japanese have established a colony on Madagascar?

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Could the Japanese have established a colony on Madagascar?

Not unless the French have somehow suddenly abandoned her interests in the area. Thats the big issue for Japan; by the end of the Boshin War its already getting pretty late to prempt European interests on the coast, and the still need at least a decade of crash industrialization and modernization to have a prayer of projecting power. Japan already advanced at a speed that's near mind boggling: you cant realistically push the timetable up much further

 

[Odinson]

Not unless the French have somehow suddenly abandoned her interests in the area. Thats the big issue for Japan; by the end of the Boshin War its already getting pretty late to prempt European interests on the coast, and the still need at least a decade of crash industrialization and modernization to have a prayer of projecting power. Japan already advanced at a speed that's near mind boggling: you cant realistically push the timetable up much further

Ah, I was thinking France didn't get the island until the late 1800s. My mistake

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Ah, I was thinking France didn't get the island until the late 1800s. My mistake

They dident annex it until than, yes, but that dosent mean Madigascar wasent already deeply stepped in Great Power interests that would restrict Japan's ability to muscle in. There are intermediate steps of influence short of direct control.

 

[Revachah]

They'd never because they don't support European colonization of African kingdoms.

If you've read the works of early Japanese discourse on Western colonialism you'd understand they had a vested interested in say Ethiopia and tried to support their independence.

Could the Japanese have established a colony on Madagascar?

Not unless the French have somehow suddenly abandoned her interests in the area. Thats the big issue for Japan; by the end of the Boshin War its already getting pretty late to prempt European interests on the coast, and the still need at least a decade of crash industrialization and modernization to have a prayer of projecting power. Japan already advanced at a speed that's near mind boggling: you cant realistically push the timetable up much further

Ah, I was thinking France didn't get the island until the late 1800s. My mistake

They dident annex it until than, yes, but that dosent mean Madigascar wasent already deeply stepped in Great Power interests that would restrict Japan's ability to muscle in. There are intermediate steps of influence short of direct control.

Why are so many if you guys on here on this *insert nation* Madagascar kick now?

 

[Dingus Khan]

Why are so many if you guys on here on this *insert nation* Madagascar kick now?

I only noticed one other thread about Madagascar being colonized by Romans (as highly implausible as that sounds).

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

I can't imagine Japanese claims in Africa being supported by any major European powers.

 

[spoonzandforkz]

I can't imagine Japanese claims in Africa being supported by any major European powers.

Why not? In the scenario that Japan beats a major European power (pick Russia. Spain, Portugal and Holland as lesser powers) and gains an alliance with a European power ala Britain OTL, it could possibly be supported or at least neutral.

 

[Dante]

I can't see Japan joining the scramble for Africa, there are to many choices closer to home. And I don't think Japan has earned their place at the table where the European powers are concerned.

 

[Lusitania]

Sorry but this was not a everyone invited party. This was an exclusive party to those already in the colonialism program to extend their colonial empires inland.

European prejudice was not about to let a Asian country to muscle in. When they could not agree who would get an area such as Congo they gave it to doneine who not upset Apple cart but was still one of them (European) which was Belgium.

Do those who are voicing support for Japan unfortunately need to realize European imperialism mentality in the 19th century was about empire building not sharing

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Sorry but this was not a everyone invited party. This was an exclusive party to those already in the colonialism program to extend their colonial empires inland.

European prejudice was not about to let a Asian country to muscle in. When they could not agree who would get an area such as Congo they gave it to doneine who not upset Apple cart but was still one of them (European) which was Belgium.

Do those who are voicing support for Japan unfortunately need to realize European imperialism mentality in the 19th century was about empire building not sharing

Actually, slight correction: they gave it personally to Leopold II's corperation to be run in a manner not too dissimilar to British corperate-industrial/run colonial ventures or the former VOC. The elected Belgian government didn't want it and only took it once the King made it a matter of national embaressment.

But thank you for bringing up a key point: that the Berlin Conference was a matter of establishing the players and set of rules for African colonization rather than a strict carving up of the cake, and Japan has zero chance of being invited. They had enough political will talent and luck to get off the menu, but not enough to join the dinner.

 

[Pelranius]

Would this ATL Japan taking a couple small islands count? That's probably the only thing that they can get, and that won't be large enough to turn into the Japanese equivalent of the Dairen Company.

 

[spoonzandforkz]

Would this ATL Japan taking a couple small islands count? That's probably the only thing that they can get, and that won't be large enough to turn into the Japanese equivalent of the Dairen Company.

Yeah, something like Seychelles could count.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Would this ATL Japan taking a couple small islands count? That's probably the only thing that they can get, and that won't be large enough to turn into the Japanese equivalent of the Dairen Company.

Yeah, something like Seychelles could count.

The question there is: why bother? It's just a highly expensive and strategically pointless excersise by a nation that dosent exactly have the resources for pointless prestige projects

 

[Lusitania]

The question there is: why bother? It's just a highly expensive and strategically pointless excersise by a nation that dosent exactly have the resources for pointless prestige projects

I mean taking Philippines that worth it for japan but attempting something as far as Africa.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

It is Madagascar.

I just checked and the French didn't invade the island until 1883. Plenty of time for the Japanese to get in first, though a protectorate to defend the island from the French and British was more likely.

Its no more ridiculous than France taking Madagascar as a colony.