WI - Japan issued an ultimatum first?

The Empire of Japan did declare war before the attack. but the top leaders at the time saw the telegram.. and didnt send it to the president.. they knew of the attack and waited... the final page of the ultimatum, which was the DoW was not released until after the war.. and by that time, no one cared. Japan did rightfully declare war on the US before the attack. but the government kept it from the people. so they could accomplish their own goals

Is your tinfoil hat getting tight yet? :rolleyes:
 
On a more serious note, what if the Japanese had an actual typist on hand and sent the ultimatum in on time? It was scheduled to arrive 30 minutes before the attack. I doubt this would have given the US much time to prepare, but perhaps at least Pearl would have been on a higher alert? More Japanese losses?
 
On a more serious note, what if the Japanese had an actual typist on hand and sent the ultimatum in on time? It was scheduled to arrive 30 minutes before the attack. I doubt this would have given the US much time to prepare, but perhaps at least Pearl would have been on a higher alert? More Japanese losses?

By the time they could confirm and process the info, they would only have minutes to prepare at best. And it'd take some time for the men to get out of bed and get dressed, let along ready a defece.
 
Not to mention the minor detail of Japanese task forces being poised on top of a whole series of targets, some of them thousands of miles from home, just as the message was delivered.

No one's going to have much doubt that Japan has honored the letter of the law but not the spirit.



Keenir, do you mock FDR's life long dream of establishing HelloKitty?:eek:
 
Is your tinfoil hat getting tight yet? :rolleyes:

Actually, he is half right. The US had already broken the Japanese Purple machine, which were used by the Japanese for diplomatic messages. Parts of the 14 page diplomatic message detailing the declaration of war was indeed broken by US officials, but unlike what 09camaro claims, it was due to technical and bureaucratic difficulties that delayed the message from reaching to the right hands. And Japan did intend to deliver the message before the attack, but their own problems delayed the message until after the attack.

From the almighty wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_leading_to_the_attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#Breaking_off_negotiations

Not really. The US Fleet seemed to believe at the time it would be just a matter of waltzing out and crushing the Japs at sea followed by the "yellow monkeys" capitulating. It was only the string of Japanese victories that removed this idea from the Allied command.
It was the loss of the battlships in Pearl that effected the US carrier doctrine in the Pacific more than anything. Plus without a "Day that will live in Infamy" the US will to fight might not survive that string of defeats that happen OTL.
Really, what's with the racial slur? Grow up or GTFO.
 
Actually, he is half right.


Doraemon,

More like a quarter wrong.

The US had already broken the Japanese Purple machine, which were used by the Japanese for diplomatic messages. Parts of the 14 page diplomatic message detailing the declaration of war...

And you're nearly completely wrong.

First, it was a 14 PART message, not a 14 page message. Nearly all of the parts had been transmitted earlier.

Second, it didn't contain a declaration of war. It only listed Japan's usual complaints and excuses for breaking off negotiations. It did not contain a declaration of war as the very page you linked to states:

Part of the Japanese plan for the attack included breaking off negotiations with the United States 30 minutes before the attack began.

and...

There were Japanese records, admitted into evidence during Congressional hearings on the attack after the War, that established that the Japanese government had not even written a declaration of war until hearing news of the successful attack. The two-line declaration of war was finally delivered to U.S. Ambassador Grew in Tokyo about 10 hours after the attack was over. He was allowed to transmit it to the United States where it was received late Monday afternoon (Washington time). (emphasis mine)

The message was indeed decoded by the US but, unlike what both you and 09camaro claim, the message did not include a declaration of war. The Japanese were only announcing that negotiations were at an end, not that a state of war existed. Because the US understood what an end to negotiations presaged, a war warning was sent out, but a warning is not a declaration.

And Japan did intend to deliver the message before the attack, but their own problems delayed the message until after the attack.

It doesn't matter what they intended because they still weren't delivering a declaration of war.


Bill
 
Doraemon,

More like a quarter wrong.



And you're nearly completely wrong.

First, it was a 14 PART message, not a 14 page message. Nearly all of the parts had been transmitted earlier.

Second, it didn't contain a declaration of war. It only listed Japan's usual complaints and excuses for breaking off negotiations. It did not contain a declaration of war as the very page you linked to states:



and...



The message was indeed decoded by the US but, unlike what both you and 09camaro claim, the message did not include a declaration of war. The Japanese were only announcing that negotiations were at an end, not that a state of war existed. Because the US understood what an end to negotiations presaged, a war warning was sent out, but a warning is not a declaration.



It doesn't matter what they intended because they still weren't delivering a declaration of war.


Bill
Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right. I actually caught those mistakes after I wrote all that, then I went out to eat, and then posted it without changing the stuff. Funny, since the wikipedia link I posted pretty much says what you pointed out as well.
 
Funny, since the wikipedia link I posted pretty much says what you pointed out as well.


Doraemon.

I think it's more funny that you posted what you wrote while supposedly knowing it was wrong and then provided a link to Wiki which let anyone who followed know what you posted was wrong.


Bill
 
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