WI Japan Invaded the US?

[clueless n00b] Me no understand dis here 'division' thingie [/clueless n00b]


Regiment would be about 1000-1500 men. Division would have 15000-30000. (2-3 regiments to a brigade, plus support troops and artillery. 2-4 brigades to a division, plus support troops, logistics troops, and more (bigger) artillery.)
 

CalBear

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Regiment would be about 1000-1500 men. Division would have 15000-30000. (2-3 regiments to a brigade, plus support troops and artillery. 2-4 brigades to a division, plus support troops, logistics troops, and more (bigger) artillery.)

I believe that that you will find that, in late 1941, the U.S. Army was going from "square" four regiment to "triangular]" three regiment divisions. The U.S., at the time, used the term "Regiment" where the British (and, I suppose, Commonwealth) forces used "Brigade".

Confusing? Of course, makes it all worthwhile. Want confusing, check out the Japanese set-up.
 
I believe that that you will find that, in late 1941, the U.S. Army was going from "square" four regiment to "triangular]" three regiment divisions. The U.S., at the time, used the term "Regiment" where the British (and, I suppose, Commonwealth) forces used "Brigade".

Confusing? Of course, makes it all worthwhile. Want confusing, check out the Japanese set-up.


Though military history is fascinating, I think I'll have to put that off for later. Our setup, both current (where we don't have any thing bigger than a brigade) and historical (fascinating, but headache inducing), is confusing enough. Hell even the Air Force is bad.
 

Vault-Scope

Banned
or how about they send a ship with a small (suicide) crew into sanfransico (sp???) harbor under a white flag as a "peace" ship...that is really filled with thousands of tons of explosives, detonate it, and wreak untol havoc like the ship that exploded in the halifax harbor during ww1

These shipes could also have kamikaze soldiers which have enought reserves to overwhelme cities taken by surprise, then torch large parts of them.
 
These shipes could also have kamikaze soldiers which have enought reserves to overwhelme cities taken by surprise, then torch large parts of them.

No. Since you specifically said that the Japanese could overwhelm cities, I'll assume that you're talking about big ones and not insignificant coastal towns. The amount of soldiers that Japan would need to take San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, San Diego, etc. would be tremendous. It's as ASB as a full-blown invasion of the US by the Japanese. Firstly, AFAIK almost all of those cities (perhaps not Portland) have significant detachments of military units based around them, San Diego even being a huge naval port. It'd be impossible for the Japanese to sneak across the Pacific, take a city "by surprise," and then burn it.

As noted before on here, there were millions of 40-something Americans that knew how to use rifles effectively due to their service in WWI; many of those men would have no problems picking up a rifle and using it against the Japanese. Not saying that they would be really all that effective, but I can't think of another country where the invaders would have to deal with the problem of armed civilians as much as they would with the military (besides the USSR).
 

CalBear

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No. Since you specifically said that the Japanese could overwhelm cities, I'll assume that you're talking about big ones and not insignificant coastal towns. The amount of soldiers that Japan would need to take San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, San Diego, etc. would be tremendous. It's as ASB as a full-blown invasion of the US by the Japanese. Firstly, AFAIK almost all of those cities (perhaps not Portland) have significant detachments of military units based around them, San Diego even being a huge naval port. It'd be impossible for the Japanese to sneak across the Pacific, take a city "by surprise," and then burn it.

As noted before on here, there were millions of 40-something Americans that knew how to use rifles effectively due to their service in WWI; many of those men would have no problems picking up a rifle and using it against the Japanese. Not saying that they would be really all that effective, but I can't think of another country where the invaders would have to deal with the problem of armed civilians as much as they would with the military (besides the USSR).

U.S. Army units based in Portland on December 7th:

Portland Oregon29th Engineer (Topographic) Battalion30th Engineer (Topographic) Battalion


USAAF
OREGON
------
Pendleton Army Air Base (Municipal Airport), Pendleton
17th Bombardment Group (Medium)
34th Bombardment Squadron (Medium) (B-25)
37th Bombardment Squadron (Medium) (B-25)
89th Reconnaissance Squadron (Medium) (B-25)
95th Bombardment Squadron (Medium) (B-25)
Portland Army Air Base (Portland-Columbia Airport), Portland
55th Pursuit Group (Interceptor)
16th Transport Squadron (C-47)
37th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor) (P-43)
38th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor) (P-43)
54th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor) (P-36, P-40, P-43)


Combat Engineers aren't infantry, but they have infantry training and equipment. There are also these forces fairly close with good road & rail connection:

Washington

Camp Murray

206th Coastal Artillery (AA) Regiment Arkansas National Guard153rd Infantry Regiment Arkansas National GuardFort Lawton6th Engineer (Combat) Battalion [6th Infantry Division]

Fort Lewis, Tacoma Washington

IX ArmyCorps

3rd Infantry Division

7th Infantry Regiment15th Infantry Regiment30th Infantry Regiment9th Field Artillery (155mm)(Trk Drawn) Battalion10th Field Artillery (105mm)(Trk Drawn) Battalion39th Field Artillery (105mm)(Trk Drawn) Battalion41st Field Artillery (105mm)(Trk Drawn) Battalion10th Engineer (Combat) Battalion

41st Infantry Division

Washington, Oregon, Idaho National Guard81st Infantry Brigade Washington Oregon National Guard161st Infantry Regiment Washington National Guard163rd Infantry Regiment Oregon National Guard82nd Infantry Brigade Oregon National Guard162nd Infantry Regiment Oregon National Guard186th Infantry Regiment Oregon National Guard66th Field Artillery Brigade 146th Field Artillery (155mm)(Motorized) Regiment Washington National Guard218th Field Artillery (155mm)(Trk Drawn) Regiment Oregon National Guard116th Engineer (Combat) Battalion Idaho National Guard115th Cavalry (Horse-mechanized) Regiment Wyoming National Guard205th Coastal Artillery (AA) Regiment Washington National Guard90th Engineer (Heavy Pontoon) Battalion146th Field Artillery (155mm)(Motorized) Regiment California National Guard98th Field Artillery (75mm)(Pack) Battalion 87th Infantry (Mountain) Regiment99th Infantry Antitank Battalion103rd Infantry Antitank Battalion Washington National Guard752nd Tank (Medium) Battalion 756th Tank (Light) Battalion Co-B 194th Tank (Light) Battalion Missouri National Guard

Fort Worden, Port Townsend Washington

14th Coastal Artillery (Harbor Defense) Regiment 248th Coastal Artillery (Harbor Defense) Regiment Washington National Guard

Vancouver Barracks, Vancouver Washington

18th Engineer (Combat) Regiment

USAAF

WASHINGTON
----------
Fort George Wright, Spokane
HQ 2nd Air Force
HQ II Bomber Command
Fort Lawton, Seattle
HQ II Interceptor Command
Geiger Field, Spokane
39th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
12th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy) (B-17)
60th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) (B-17)
61st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) (B-17)
62nd Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) (B-17)
Gray Field, Fort Lewis, Tacoma
2nd Photographic Squadron (F-2)
70th Observation Group
116th Observation Squadron, Wash NG (O-47, O-49)
123d Observation Squadron, Ore NG (BC-1, O-46)
McChord Field, Tacoma
12th Bombardment Group (Light)
81st Bombardment Squadron (Light) (B-18)
82nd Bombardment Squadron (Light) (B-18, PT-17)
83rd Bombardment Squadron (Light) (B-18, B-23)
94th Bombardment Squadron (Light) (B-18, B-23)
Paine Field, Everett
54th Pursuit Group (Interceptor)
42nd Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor) (P-39)
56th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor) (P-39)
57th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor) (P-39)


From the very useful http://www.navsource.org/Naval/
 
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Vault-Scope

Banned
Firstly, AFAIK almost all of those cities (perhaps not Portland) have significant detachments of military units based around them, San Diego even being a huge naval port. It'd be impossible for the Japanese to sneak across the Pacific, take a city "by surprise," and then burn it.

1 orv 2 cities would do, now how much was that "significant military presence"? Bigger and better armed than the forces in Pearl Harbour?
 
1 orv 2 cities would do, now how much was that "significant military presence"? Bigger and better armed than the forces in Pearl Harbour?

Dude.

Dude.

Dude.

Where's the oil coming from to take that Magical Japanese Invasion Fleet of Doom halfway across the world to hit CONUS?
 

bard32

Banned
I ...quote]

The Japanese did indeed take Singapore and the Malay Peninsula. The force that did so either marched or sailed across the Gulf of Siam. The forces that attempted landing were handled very roughly indeed by small elements of Commonwealth troops.

Any attack on the West Coast would, by simple matters of geography, have to occur at the end of a 5,000 mile long supply line. It would have to take place, again by pure accident of Geography, in a very limited number of locations, all of which present serious problems for the invasion force, both as they are near concentration of American troops (Camp Pendleton, North Island, Fort Ord, The Presidio, Alameda NAS, Fort Lewis) and are fairly easy to cut off from egress to other regions. (It is important, it seems, to note that the aforementioned military posts were teeming with troops starting in late 1940 as the fruits of the peacetime draft were turned into the army that was later used in Europe & the Pacific). Again, by simple accident of Geography, the potential landing beaches are all close, but not very close, to a number of airfields that were used to provide advanced training for fighter pilots and bombing ranges, meaning that a fairly surprising percentage of the most advanced American designs were within several hundred miles of the possible landing sites, thus being close enough to be used against any invader, but far enough away, and sufficiently scattered, to prevent easy counter air action. Two major naval bases are along the California coast, given the logistical realities, one of these will be wholly unmolested and available to send forces against any invader.

You then move to the logistical realities. The Japanese, at MOST, can sent two divisions (and even this figure will likely be unsupportable) against the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. The population can literally kill 20,000 troops with rocks and sticks, not that it will be necessary. At every possible land site (again, thanks to the geography of the West Coast with it's mostly sea cliff approaches and rock strewn waters) the U.S. Army and/or USMC have large bases, each of which will outnumber any invader. The Americans will also be able to use both rail and a highly developed road network to move reinforcements, including heavy forces (remember all those tanks that were being shipped for Lend-Lease?), to any assault point for uses against a light infantry force with very limited air cover (the Kido Butai isn't going to be able to stay, even in the reduced size that is available, given other operational needs). This leave you with an outnumbered, seriously out gunned, force at the end of a tenuous supply line.

A couple of final points. By July 1941 the United States had roughly 1,000,000 trained troops. These were, granted, grass green and in many cases little more than civilians with basic training; nevertheless, a million men is a pile of armed and trained troops. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/COS-Biennial/COS-Biennial-1.html#page21 Several hundred thousand of these troops were within four days rail travel of the Pacific Ocean.

Finally a brief point about Militia: The militia in the U.S. in 1941 was nothing to sneeze at. Unlike today, civilian hunting weapons differed little from the basic infantry arms of the day. There were well over 1,000,000 men under the age of fifty in the U.S. who had military experience, including several hundred thousand with some sort of combat experience from the Great War. These men had access to what was, at the time, military quality equipment, including Thompson submachine guns and Browning Automatic Rifles, both of which were available in a good sporting goods store. A significant number of these men were also either police officers or had been in National Guard service at some point in the 1930s (although now out of the military and not included in the count noted above), and were used to some level of discipline and following of orders. Lastly, while deer do not shoot back, neither do they threaten hearth and home. Forty thousand people with deer rifiles, and a smattering of automatic weapons, is nothing to dismiss out of hand, especially when you only have 20 - 25,000 troops available to you with roughly the same equippment.

I agree with you to a point, CalBear. If the Japanese had succeeded in luring our carriers north to the Aleutians in June 1942, then Midway would have been left wide open like a receiver from either the New England Patriots or New York Giants being left uncovered by the opposition. The Japanese would
have overrun the defenders that were there. If you think Wake Island was bad, Midway would have been much worse. If Japan had a logistics base at Midway,they could have used it as a springboard for the invasion of Hawaii,
and probably, even, the West Coast.
 

CalBear

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I agree with you to a point, CalBear. If the Japanese had succeeded in luring our carriers north to the Aleutians in June 1942, then Midway would have been left wide open like a receiver from either the New England Patriots or New York Giants being left uncovered by the opposition. The Japanese would
have overrun the defenders that were there. If you think Wake Island was bad, Midway would have been much worse. If Japan had a logistics base at Midway,they could have used it as a springboard for the invasion of Hawaii,
and probably, even, the West Coast.

Bollocks.

For one thing, the ability of 2,500 SNLF troops, using landing boats that could not surmount the reefs around the atoll, against 5,000 U.S. troops, including 3,500 marines, equipped with everything from 7" anti-ship guns to tanks, is questionable, at best. Widway was a smaller version of Tarawa, except the DEFENDERS outnumbered the assualt force by 2-1. The Japanese had no reasonable pre-invasion bombardment plan (3 hours by a heavy cruiser division isn't going to cut it) and no way for the landing force to communicate with the carrier aircraft (they didn't even have a doctrine covering the process). Worse, there was NO RESERVE for the landing force closer than the Paulas or Truk, so once they are destroyed, and they would have been destroyed, there's no way to take the Island.

You mentioned Wake. Wake wasn't a tenth as prepared as Midway and it repulsed a force almost one third the size of the one being sent to Midway (that was with 350 Marines, with out prepared concrete bunkers, armor, and with about eight machine guns).

Next, where did Japan suddenly get the lift (hell the troops)to invade Hawaii? By June of 1942 the U.S. Army had around 80,000 troops on the Island, & the Marines had a defense battalion assigned there. The place bristled with AAA. The USAAF had well over 200 modern fighters and several bomber GROUPS, while the Navy had a fighter and dive bomber squadrons there working up for deployment. There were a varying number of subs, either returning from or preping for patrol that could surge to sea if needed. The U.S. may have locked the barn door after the horse had escaped, but they locked the hell out of it when they did.

The Japanese would have needed to land at least ten divisions to even have a prayer. The Japanese only had 2,500 hundred men available to hit Midway, that was just about the end of their available manpower. Going to invade Hawaii with 2,500 men?
 
I agree with you to a point, CalBear. If the Japanese had succeeded in luring our carriers north to the Aleutians in June 1942, then Midway would have been left wide open like a receiver from either the New England Patriots or New York Giants being left uncovered by the opposition.
Bard, you're foaming at the mouth again...

You realize that within one line of stating you agreed with CalBear you promptly contradict yourself? Now onto the actually gibberish you wrote:
The Japanese would have overrun the defenders that were there. If you think Wake Island was bad, Midway would have been much worse.
Maybe not... the US garrison on Midway was suficient that the Japanese would have taken massive casulties in the process of taking the island and may even have been thrown back into the sea.
If Japan had a logistics base at Midway,they could have used it as a springboard for the invasion of Hawaii, and probably, even, the West Coast.
Nope... first, Midway isn't exactly ideal as a supply base or an offensive foward base... we're talking a total land area of around 650 hectares, which doesn't allow particularly much space for airfields (plus hangers etc.); supply & fuel dumps; barracks etc.. Second, Japanese sealift doesn't really allow you to shift sufficient forces to threatern the major islands of Hawaii. Third, Midway is right at the end of a long supply line and within easy range of USN submarines and USAAF bombers -both based in Hawaii... hence expect losses of supply vessels at an unsustainable rate. Fourth, Japanese invasions of Hawaii have been done to death, and the usual conclusion is that in anything short of a near ASB scenario it's wildly implausible.
 
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