WI Japan doesn't sinicize?

yoyo

Banned
From my reading, Japan was the only sinicized state that was never occupied by China and Chinese culture arrived by diffusion from the korean kingdom of Baekje. Baekje was known as the phoenicia of east asia and was the only east asian state that thrived through trade and had great nautical skill. It was through this kingdom that Japan adopted chinese culture and tech. But what if this kingdom didn't exist and instead Korea was controlled by land-based states like its competitors Silla and Goguryeo? Without the diffusion of culture through baekje, how would route would japan take?

250px-History_of_Korea-375.png
 
I don't know. Looking at the map, the Japanese islands are so close to the Korean peninsula some exchange eventually is bound to happen. It would take an extremely centralised and inward power structure like the Tokugawa shogunate to cut off or at least controll all foreign influences so the question is if something like the Tokugawa could come to power in the first place without the underpinning of imported Chinese writing and bureaucracy.
 

yoyo

Banned
I don't know. Looking at the map, the Japanese islands are so close to the Korean peninsula some exchange eventually is bound to happen. It would take an extremely centralised and inward power structure like the Tokugawa shogunate to cut off or at least controll all foreign influences so the question is if something like the Tokugawa could come to power in the first place without the underpinning of imported Chinese writing and bureaucracy.
With the exception of Japan all other sinicized states were under heavy chinese political influence or occupation. Japan was the only country where chinese influence diffused peacefully.
For example Tibet was not sinicized despite so close to china. Tibet resembled the situation in Japan with many divided tribes that was far away from chinese political influence and occupation. I am wondering if a tibetan situation could be replicated in Japan.
 
IIRC there is nonzero evidence of archaic non-Yamato peoples all across Japan and that the Yamato themselves were a Sinicized group by nature.
 
Japan had contact with Korea and China even without Baekje, it wasn't a singular incident that can be avoided by just removing a single player.
 

yoyo

Banned
IIRC there is nonzero evidence of archaic non-Yamato peoples all across Japan and that the Yamato themselves were a Sinicized group by nature.
Well there's the Ainu presently, and the emishi, kumaso and hayato of the past. Then there was Yamatai-koku which preceded chinese influence.
 

yoyo

Banned
Japan had contact with Korea and China even without Baekje, it wasn't a singular incident that can be avoided by just removing a single player.
Very true, but japan was extremely isolated due to backward and divided natureof the country. Very similar to how Tibet was at one point. Given the Chinese culture rarely expanded by diffusion and more along the lines of conquest and direct political influence(like Korea, Vietnam, Tangut, Nanzhao) with Japan being the notable exception due to the presence of extensive trade with Baekje. Japan only linked with east asia because of extremely strong ties with ruling of house of baekje. There is no precedence of a maritime focused east asian state forming a possible marital alliance with a "barbarian" state.
1. For example no such relationship existed between Proto-tibetans and the Chinese empire despite very close proximity. Tibetans instead formed their own distinct civilization with some indian influence.
2. Another example would be Philippines and Taiwan, which was right next to extremely populace and dynamic South China but did not sinicize. In fact Philippines was more Indian influence than it was Chinese.
 

yoyo

Banned
I don't know. Looking at the map, the Japanese islands are so close to the Korean peninsula some exchange eventually is bound to happen. It would take an extremely centralised and inward power structure like the Tokugawa shogunate to cut off or at least controll all foreign influences so the question is if something like the Tokugawa could come to power in the first place without the underpinning of imported Chinese writing and bureaucracy.
I'm basically thinking of a situation where Japan is the Philippines of the North; where the Philippines did not sinicize despite being right next to South China.
 

yoyo

Banned
Probably a smaller Buddhist population.
I'm inclined to think that Buddhism would probably be more pervasive than otl, where Buddhist monastic order from China or South East asia convert the population. Due to the bringing of literacy, Japanese culture would revolve around buddhism, comparable to Tibet or Ireland.
 
Well there's the Ainu presently, and the emishi, kumaso and hayato of the past. Then there was Yamatai-koku which preceded chinese influence.
One timeline or mini-timeline Idea I had would be if the Maori or *Maori ended up in Japan instead of New Zealand.
 

yoyo

Banned
One timeline or mini-timeline Idea I had would be if the Maori or *Maori ended up in Japan instead of New Zealand.
Japanese culture might have resembled Maori culture at one point, likely before sinification or Yayoi migration. There may have been austronesians in japan.
 
Japanese culture might have resembled Maori culture at one point, likely before sinification or Yayoi migration. There may have been austronesians in japan.
IIRC aren't the Kumato commonly considered to be austroasiantic or austronesian?
 
Do you have any ideas?
I mean, from what I've read (in the past few minutes, mind you) on it, it seems just as likely that the Kumato and Hayato and etc are remnants of the Jomon culture as they are Austronesian. I have absolutely no comprehension of Japanese, much less scholarly Japanese, and so I can't even begin to comment on it themselves, but it wouldn't suprise me if there was some admixture by Austronesians in the early migration period, but I don't think that it's quite on the same level of settlement as in, say, the Pacific or even Indonesia. There is also the whole Dravidio-Korean Hypothesis which I have found to be compelling enough to suggest that there was at least significant influence by some Dravidian group on Korean, though I can't say anything about Japan. There's also other groups like the Nivkh.
 
I'm inclined to think that Buddhism would probably be more pervasive than otl, where Buddhist monastic order from China or South East asia convert the population. Due to the bringing of literacy, Japanese culture would revolve around buddhism, comparable to Tibet or Ireland.
Japanese culture did revolve around Buddhism- during the Edo period, everyone had to register with a Buddhist temple. The existence of Shinto does not preclude the practice of Buddhism.
 
I mean, from what I've read (in the past few minutes, mind you) on it, it seems just as likely that the Kumato and Hayato and etc are remnants of the Jomon culture as they are Austronesian. I have absolutely no comprehension of Japanese, much less scholarly Japanese, and so I can't even begin to comment on it themselves, but it wouldn't suprise me if there was some admixture by Austronesians in the early migration period, but I don't think that it's quite on the same level of settlement as in, say, the Pacific or even Indonesia. There is also the whole Dravidio-Korean Hypothesis which I have found to be compelling enough to suggest that there was at least significant influence by some Dravidian group on Korean, though I can't say anything about Japan. There's also other groups like the Nivkh.

Umm, wasn't Jōmon the direct continuity of the Japanese ice age refugium? Seems pretty unlikely to me that they'd be Austronesian seeing as how Austronesians probably had their origin in South China or Taiwan some time later.
 
Very true, but japan was extremely isolated due to backward and divided natureof the country.

That's... a great simplification? Sure we don't know a lot about prehistoric Japan, but there is records of Sinic contact since the Wei dynasty and mentions of Wa people on China that would eventually come back and spread whatever they learned in China, Japan wasn't so isolationist as commonly portrayed.


Given the Chinese culture rarely expanded by diffusion and more along the lines of conquest and direct political influence(like Korea, Vietnam, Tangut, Nanzhao)
Korea (South) would disagree.
 
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