WI Jamukha unites the Mongols?

[Velkas]

Well, in the timeline I'm working on, one of the major PODs is that Temujin (Genghis Khan) gets killed in 1201 from an arrow-wound. (He got this arrow-wound in OTL, but survived it.) Jamukha takes advantage of this situation by absorbing the tribes under Temujin into his own force. (He also kills all of Temujin's family members and generals, to destroy any threat to his power.)

Well, what next? I was originally going to have him easily defeated after a few years (the Jurchens send one of the Steppe tribes he doesn't unite against him when he becomes too much of a threat), but it would be much more interesting if his uniting of the Steppe tribes actually had more of an effect on the timeline than simply negating all the effects of Genghis Khan and his successors in OTL. Though with Jamukha in charge, the effects are bound to be a lot smaller: I don't see a Mongol Empire created by him reaching from Russia to Persia to China, for instance.

What might Jamukha attempt to do after uniting the tribes? What would be feasible for him to successfully accomplish?

 

[MNP]

Jamukha was historically more into the idea of clans than Genghis Khan. So it's certainly possible that you wouldn't have "Mongol" being the name of the ethnic group. I think he would focus more efforts on XiXia.

Of course that's even if Jamukha can unite them, which is not a given.

 

[Velkas]

I think he would focus more efforts on XiXia.

The Western Xia? But what do you mean by "focus more efforts" on them?

Of course that's even if Jamukha can unite them, which is not a given.

Of course. But it would be far more interesting if he DOES manage to unite them.

Anyone have any other ideas of what he might do?

 

[Velkas]

Anyone else?...

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

I would imagine, at the very least, the campaigns against the Jurchen Jin would go differently. Genghis Khan historically was very lucky in his campaigns against the Jin, who composed arguably the most powerful military force in Asia. Yes, there were serious problems with the Jin, but for some examples of Genghis's good fortune: Key Jin commanders lost their nerve, Khitans and Jurchens defected to the Mongols, and the court couldn't decide whether to ally or attack the Southern Song. It seems unlikely that another Mongol leader could achieve such coincidental fortunes.

 

[Elfwine]

Maybe some of them, though.

One other thing: Those who were loyal to Genghis - as in, Temujin himself - might not favor Jamukha.

Similarly, some who opposed him might not oppose Temujin. Can't think of anyone in particular, but I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Maybe some of them, though.

One other thing: Those who were loyal to Genghis - as in, Temujin himself - might not favor Jamukha.

Similarly, some who opposed him might not oppose Temujin. Can't think of anyone in particular, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Possibly. I think Jurchens and Khitans might still defect, but really, the fact that the Jin launched a major invasion of the Song Dynasty, right after two Jin capitals were captured and Northern China was ravaged, is such a poor decision that it doesn't seem likely to be repeated.

 

[Elfwine]

Possibly. I think Jurchens and Khitans might still defect, but really, the fact that the Jin launched a major invasion of the Song Dynasty, right after two Jin capitals were captured and Northern China was ravaged, is such a poor decision that it doesn't seem likely to be repeated.

I'm not sure I agree there. I mean yes, it is stupid, but I don't know if this would inspire them to show sense they didn't OTL.

Ignoring chaos theory, obviously - with that, we have a boatload of changes.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

I'm not sure I agree there. I mean yes, it is stupid, but I don't know if this would inspire them to show sense they didn't OTL.

Ignoring chaos theory, obviously - with that, we have a boatload of changes.

My point is that the Mongol conquest of the Jin was a "Mouse That Roared"-situation that would seem improbable to a person who didn't know it happened, and to me at least, the idea of Jamukha or Genghis Khan conquering Eurasia is an unlikely event that shouldn't be repeated too often in alternate history.

 

[Velkas]

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to have him conquer Eurasia, or even come close, but crippling the Jin state... that's another matter.

So, if he's not able to conquer the Jurchens, how much damage can he do to them?

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to have him conquer Eurasia, or even come close, but crippling the Jin state... that's another matter.

So, if he's not able to conquer the Jurchens, how much damage can he do to them?

Well, the Jin had their fair share of weaknesses too. I could imagine Jamukha attacking and taking either Datong or Zhongdu, and then after a few decades, the Jin might collapse among petty Jurchen princes or decay on their own, and then the Mongols conquer North China in the resulting chaos. A Mongol conquest of the Jin isn't impossible, but realistically, it should have taken the Mongols more than merely twenty years.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Sounds like a mongol empire who may be remaining all in Asia...

 

[Max Sinister]

Genghis reformed Mongol society in so many ways: The military, making them meritocratic, giving them a script and a new law code... it would surprise me if Jamukha could do all of that as well.

 

[Velkas]

Genghis reformed Mongol society in so many ways: The military, making them meritocratic, giving them a script and a new law code... it would surprise me if Jamukha could do all of that as well.

No, he couldn't, and that's sort of the point.

The steppe tribes under Jamuka could not do a tenth of what the Mongols under Genghis Khan could do. But that doesn't mean they can't do anything...