WI: James II captures Derry

So let's say the Apprentice Boys of Derry fail at life and the city surrenders without much fuss. James II keeps his army intact; could this have led to a different Battle of the Boyne (or equivalent)? What would hist future prospects be if he holds all Ireland?
 

Thande

Donor
I don't think James II could hold Ireland in the long run unless he could get loads of French troops there...on the other hand, England was certainly not in a fit state to seriously contest the island again anytime soon. Basically the problem lies in the fact that the French would have to contest English naval superiority in home waters to resupply an Irish colony every time there was an eighteenth century war, and that's not a fight that OTL suggests they can triumph in: the French would have to win every time, whereas the English would only have to win once.

Still, Ireland existing as a fully distinct, united state out of England's orbit even just for a decade or two could have significant repercussions for the future of the island (and England herself for that matter).
 
Could a continued Stuart threat and constant raiding and counter-raiding across the Irish Sea prevent the Restoration?

There'd be a lot of popular anger due to war-ravages even if people tire of Cromwell's dour regime.
 

MrP

Banned
Could a continued Stuart threat and constant raiding and counter-raiding across the Irish Sea prevent the Restoration?

There'd be a lot of popular anger due to war-ravages even if people tire of Cromwell's dour regime.

You've lost me a bit, old boy. James II followed Charles II to the throne. Charles II was the chap who was restored after Cromwell.
 
Could a continued Stuart threat and constant raiding and counter-raiding across the Irish Sea prevent the Restoration?

There'd be a lot of popular anger due to war-ravages even if people tire of Cromwell's dour regime.

Wrong War, you're thinking about Irish Confederate Wars, which were 1649-1653, we're talking about Williamite War in Ireland which was 1689-1691.
 

Thande

Donor
Although, as it happens, Merry's confusion is somewhat apposite as the Irish Confederation might provide a model for a Jacobite Ireland.
 
You're a Lundy? Foyle war

I wouldn'tr excatly say that the apprentice boys would need to fail at life. The Marquis of Lundy had intended to surrender Londonderry and was prevented by the apprentice boys's rush. I suspect they could have been prevented fairly easily if Lundy had had his wits about him. Londonderry might still have surrendered later if some armed merchant ships hadn't broken the boom across the Foyle

However lets say Lundy had his wish or possibly Londonderry had still surrendered. James had virtually no support in England William being initially supported by both Whigs and Tories. He had little support in Scotland outside the highlands and a revolt by Dundee was stopped with Dundees death and checked at Dunblane. Outside Ireland and parts of Scotland it was still effectively a family fued

James would still have had to face a powerful army at the Boyne with Dutch German and even some French Hugenots against him. Maybe a longer war in Ireland but over by the time Queen Anne died and the succession of the Stuart line became a contentious issue with some Tories becoming Jacobite. As for Irish history a famous song sums it all up


"Two foreign old monarchs in battle did join
Each wanting their head on the back of a coin
If the Irish had sense they'd drown both in the Boyne
And Partition throw into the ocean

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water"

The main result of the apprentice boys failing might have been that one rather truimphalist celebration might not have taken place and that might not have been a bad thing. July 12th is part of Irelands heritage and one day might be acknowledged as such with a public holiday in a United Inreland at least in the North. The apprentice boys are a bit ott.


spc.gif
Surrounded By Water
[print]
(Dominic Behan)
spc.gif
They say that the lakes of Killarney are fair
That no stream like the Liffey can ever compare
If it's water you want you'll find nothing more rare
Than the stuff they make down by the ocean

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water

Tom Moore made his waters meet fame and renown
A great lover of anything dressed in a crown
In brandy the bandy old Saxon he'd drown
But throw ne'er a one into the ocean

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water

The Scots have their whisky, the Welsh have their speech
And their poets are paid about ten pence a week
Provided no hard words on England they speak
Oh Lord! What a price for devotion!

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water

The Danes came to Ireland with nothing to do
But dream of the plundered old Irish they slew
"Yeh will in your Vikings", said Brian Boru
And threw them back in the ocean

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water

Two foreign old monarchs in battle did join
Each wanting their head on the back of a coin
If the Irish had sense they'd drown both in the Boyne
And Partition throw into the ocean

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water

spc.gif
Surrounded By Water
[print]
(Dominic Behan)
spc.gif
They say that the lakes of Killarney are fair
That no stream like the Liffey can ever compare
If it's water you want you'll find nothing more rare
Than the stuff they make down by the ocean

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water

Tom Moore made his waters meet fame and renown
A great lover of anything dressed in a crown
In brandy the bandy old Saxon he'd drown
But throw ne'er a one into the ocean

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water

The Scots have their whisky, the Welsh have their speech
And their poets are paid about ten pence a week
Provided no hard words on England they speak
Oh Lord! What a price for devotion!

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water

The Danes came to Ireland with nothing to do
But dream of the plundered old Irish they slew
"Yeh will in your Vikings", said Brian Boru
And threw them back in the ocean

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water

Two foreign old monarchs in battle did join
Each wanting their head on the back of a coin
If the Irish had sense they'd drown both in the Boyne
And Partition throw into the ocean

The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Oh! thank God we're surrounded by water
 
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