WI: Jadwiga of Poland marries a Silesian Piast

Originally posted by kasumingex
The people of WielkoPolska wanted the Masovian Piast actually, so basically, WielkoPolska and MaloPolska rivalry could result in an earlier partition of Poland had the other houses that had rightful claims to Polish throne played their cards better.
Siemowit IV actually started a war for Polish crown, but it was pretty much a war against Jadwiga. Originally he intended to marry her (there was even a plan to kidnap the young queen), but when it failed, he tried to use force to get the crown. After he was pronounced the king at a congress in Sieradz in 1383 (for a second time, BTW), he occupied Kujawy and besieged town of Kalisz, without success. Next year Polish-Hungarian army forced him back. He eventually agreed to accept Jadwiga as Polish king (yes, king) for a very nice quote of money and lost any chance for Polish crown.
It is possible that with more successes Siemowit would have had more followers. OTOH, noblemen of Little Poland (Małopolska) had strong Hungarian support, while Great Poland (Wielkopolska) was weakened by a civil war between powerful Nałęcz and Grzymała families.
But WI Siemowit IV didn't use force? What if he simply declared himself as a candidate for Jadwiga's hand and Jogaila was unavailabale (for any reason)?
IMHO Jogaila was the best choice. But if not him, then who?
 
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MSZ

Banned
William of Austria was the first choice, IIRC. In fact in order to marry Jogaila the arranged marriage between him and Jadwiga had to be broken and William compensated.

So if the Habsburg family was interested in the Polish Crown, were there, or could there be, any suitable candidates of Habsburg heritage holding land in Silesia? I could imagine a situation where Jadwiga marries a Habsburg who happens to be a Duke of Some Silesian Duchy, thus giving the Habsburg a Crown to their collection, and the Poles an ally in the HRE. Wikipedia tells me that Agnes of Austria and Bolko II the Small had a heir who died as a child. Suppose he survives, becomes the Duke of Świdnica of a Piast-Habsburg dynasty. Could such a person be a possible candidate for Jadwiga?
 
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I'm still sceptical about Silesian candidate for Polish king, but I have to admit that a son of Bolko II would be the best of them. But still, Bohemia treated Silesia as its playground. A strongest of Silesian rulers as Polish king? That would antagonize Prague, affaraid of Polish attempt to reconquer Silesia.
Also, I'm not sure if Bolko II would have been allowed to expand his rule as he did IOTL if he hadn't promised to leave his lands after his death to the King of Bohemia. Had he had a son, he obviously would have done it.
 
Jadwiga marrying someone else may be easy: I already suggested on another thread that Jogaila dying an early death would deprive Poland of a potential union with Lithuania by default.
 
Originally posted by Sibirskaya
Jadwiga marrying someone else may be easy: I already suggested on another thread that Jogaila dying an early death would deprive Poland of a potential union with Lithuania by default.

But other ruler of Lithuania also might be interested in marrying Jadwiga, if he is not married. It all depends of the situation in Lithuania after Jogaila dies. Vytautas would be as interested in Polish throne as Jogaila was, for the same reason (Teutonic Order) and the Poles would welcome him the same - they cared more about an alliance with Lithuania than Jogaila himself.
I know Vytautas was married to Anna, but was she Christian? It is debatable whether she was a princess of Smolensk or Lithuanian noblewoman. If she wasn't Christian, she might have been sent away. It wouldn't be the first time a ruler gives up a woman he loves (if Vytautas loved Anna) to gain a crown.
 
Originally posted by Sibirskaya


But other ruler of Lithuania also might be interested in marrying Jadwiga, if he is not married. It all depends of the situation in Lithuania after Jogaila dies. Vytautas would be as interested in Polish throne as Jogaila was, for the same reason (Teutonic Order) and the Poles would welcome him the same - they cared more about an alliance with Lithuania than Jogaila himself.
I know Vytautas was married to Anna, but was she Christian? It is debatable whether she was a princess of Smolensk or Lithuanian noblewoman. If she wasn't Christian, she might have been sent away. It wouldn't be the first time a ruler gives up a woman he loves (if Vytautas loved Anna) to gain a crown.

I'm not sure on what the religion Anna, Grand Duchess of Lithuania embraced, but she did give birth to Sophia of Lithuania, who in turn, married Vasily I of Moscow. It was through Sophia that the Gediminid blood runs in the veins of Muscovite rulers.
 
Originally pointed by Sibirskaya
I'm not sure on what the religion Anna, Grand Duchess of Lithuania embraced, but she did give birth to Sophia of Lithuania, who in turn, married Vasily I of Moscow. It was through Sophia that the Gediminid blood runs in the veins of Muscovite rulers.
And your point is?
 
My point is that if Vytautas does marry Jadwiga instead of Jogaila, I'm sure the Poles would have gained Lithuania as an ally a lot earlier and a lot faster at Muscovy's expense.
 
I'm not sure if I understand. With Jogaila being crowned king of Poland, Poles got their alliance with Lithuania. I do not see how a marriage with Vytautas could make it faster. Unless you mean that without the feud between Vytautas and Jogaila Lithuania would be prepared for war with the Teutonic Order earlier. However, I do not think that the Poles planned for aggressive war. After all they waited till 1409, and the conflict was actually started by the Order.
 
I'm not sure if I understand. With Jogaila being crowned king of Poland, Poles got their alliance with Lithuania. I do not see how a marriage with Vytautas could make it faster. Unless you mean that without the feud between Vytautas and Jogaila Lithuania would be prepared for war with the Teutonic Order earlier. However, I do not think that the Poles planned for aggressive war. After all they waited till 1409, and the conflict was actually started by the Order.

Yeah, I meant for butterflying away the civil war between Vytautas and Jogaila if something happens to the latter. And the Order must have been a nutjob for picking a fight with Lithuania.
 
Originally posted by Sibirskaya
And the Order must have been a nutjob for picking a fight with Lithuania.

No. Picking a fight against Lithuania AND Poland was risky. Against Lithuania itself the Order did well enough, IIRC.
Lithuanians were as brave as any in the world, but the Order had a technological advantage (much better armour) and better organization. Not to mention many knights from western Europe (mostly German lands) who would come to fight pagans.
 
Actually, you could have both Jogaila and Vyautas dead after Jadwiga dies and Sophia of Lithuania marries the Prince of Muscovy which will result in the merger between Muscovy and Lithuania, while the Poles are forced to choose between the Masovian Piasts or the Luxembourgs.
You know Jogaila and Vytautas actually died after Jadwiga had died and Sophia had married the Prince of Muscovy and there were no merger between Muscovy and Lithuania. :rolleyes:
 
Well, IOTL Jogaila was chosen to become Jadwiga's husband BECAUSE Poland was in conflict (cold, so far) with the Teutonic Order. With a single stroke the Poles got a competent king, a military ally against TO (Lithuania), a lot of points with the Church (for converting Lithuania, which was one of the conditions of the marriage) and they made TO redundant, since there were no pagans to fight in that part of Europe anymore. At least officially.
The conflict with TO was more actual to the nobility of the Great Poland. There were the conflict with Lithuania over some Western Russian territories that was more actual to the Lesser Poland.
 
Originally posted by Sibirskaya


No. Picking a fight against Lithuania AND Poland was risky. Against Lithuania itself the Order did well enough, IIRC.
Lithuanians were as brave as any in the world, but the Order had a technological advantage (much better armour) and better organization. Not to mention many knights from western Europe (mostly German lands) who would come to fight pagans.

Well, better and heavier armor kinda screwed them in Lake Peipus against a nimble and lighter armored Novgorodian Army.

abas said:
You know Jogaila and Vytautas actually died after Jadwiga had died and Sophia had married the Prince of Muscovy and there were no merger between Muscovy and Lithuania.

Fine. We can just go back to when Algirdas/Olgerd was still alive and actually nip Muscovy's power in the process after beating the Golden Horde in 1362.
 
Not very good example. If my memory don't betray me there were only 24 Teutonic knights present (or 22)

And the rest were probably Estonian auxilliaries. Judging by how menacing they looked at the Rus' peoples, no wonder why the Golden Horde seemed to be the lesser of two evils.
 
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