WI: Ivan Ivanovich (son of Ivan IV) lives

The fate of Russia's original Rurik dynasty was sealed when Ivan IV (a.k.a. The Terrible), in a heated argument with his son and heir Ivan Ivanovich surrounding the fact that the elder Ivan had just beaten up the son's wife and caused her to miscarry their child (I know, right?), struck the tsarevich in a fit of blind rage with his scepter, causing a fatal head injury. Not only was this bizarre episode a personal tragedy, but with that, the only heir left for Ivan IV was his mentally handicapped younger son Feodor, who died childless, which in turn led to the Time Of Troubles, marked not only by famine and disease, but a chaotic series of civil wars, power struggles, and war with interfering foreign powers.

Now, let's say that Ivan Ivanovich survives this encounter with his father, and remains the heir and takes the throne as Tsar Ivan V upon Ivan Grozny's death. By most accounts, he was very similar in personality to his father, sharing similar sadistic and hedonistic tendencies, while also being as intelligent and well-read. But if he lived (and someday produced an heir himself), the Rurik dynasty may have remained stable, and while the famines and disease outbreaks of the early 17th century would still happen, the wars and power struggles are avoided. What happens from there?
 
Would likely have been better for Russia.

First off there is a smoother transition to a new government.

Second of all it was Ivan the Terrible's aggressive nature that drove a lot of his modernization and unification of Russia. If his son follows his fathers footsteps, you will either get more modernization or a strengthening of the policies his father set in place.
 
With Ivan Ivanovich ruling as Tsar of Russia after his father the Terrible's death, the Times of Troubles could be butterflied away, though the famine of 1600 (I'm not sure which year) cannot be butteflied.
 
A question that comes up.

If Ivan Ivanovich is as mad as his father, will that be greeted with fear, or plots?
 
With Ivan Ivanovich ruling as Tsar of Russia after his father the Terrible's death, the Times of Troubles could be butterflied away, though the famine of 1600 (I'm not sure which year) cannot be butteflied.
For an alliance I think the children of Ivan Ivanovich should ally with the Habsburgs to unite Russia.

I think a two way partition would be good for Poland-Lithuania rather than a three way and will benefit both the Catholics and the Orthodox, Poland proper and Lithuania proper will go to the Habsburgs while the Orthodox parts which are really parts of Kievian Rus go to Russia.
 
For an alliance I think the children of Ivan Ivanovich should ally with the Habsburgs to unite Russia.

I think a two way partition would be good for Poland-Lithuania rather than a three way and will benefit both the Catholics and the Orthodox, Poland proper and Lithuania proper will go to the Habsburgs while the Orthodox parts which are really parts of Kievian Rus go to Russia.

. . . besides your fascination with alt-dynastic marriages, why on earth would Ivan V's children ally with the Habsburgs, and how would that help unite Russia?

Poland-Lithuania at this point is hardly in a position for either to partition.
 
. . . besides your fascination with alt-dynastic marriages, why on earth would Ivan V's children ally with the Habsburgs, and how would that help unite Russia?

Poland-Lithuania at this point is hardly in a position for either to partition.

Plus the PLC is ruled by the Jaigellons, and the idea of a Hapsburg PLC wouldn't enter the picture until say, 1572, and even there the Rurikids would never unite with the Catholic Hapsburgs.
 
. . . besides your fascination with alt-dynastic marriages, why on earth would Ivan V's children ally with the Habsburgs, and how would that help unite Russia?

Poland-Lithuania at this point is hardly in a position for either to partition.
I am no longer interested in dynastical marriages but rather marriages that unite rival houses that fight for a country.


Plus the PLC is ruled by the Jaigellons, and the idea of a Hapsburg PLC wouldn't enter the picture until say, 1572, and even there the Rurikids would never unite with the Catholic Hapsburgs.
That is after the Jagellonians go extinct at the time when Maximilian Habsburg was trying to get the Polish throne, I think the Unsatisfied Ukrainians and Belarusians could ally with Ivan Ivanovich which will weaken PLC ruled by Bathory, If the Jagellonians survive I like PLC losing all of Ruthenia and Gaining back Silesia because Silesia at that time still has a Polish majority..
 
Plus the PLC is ruled by the Jaigellons, and the idea of a Hapsburg PLC wouldn't enter the picture until say, 1572, and even there the Rurikids would never unite with the Catholic Hapsburgs.

I suppose it might be possible if you specifically tried to find a way to make it work, but I can't think of any scenarios that would see Rurikid interest in it.

I am no longer interested in dynastical marriages but rather marriages that unite rival houses that fight for a country.

I suppose that means no more Bourbon Persia, but I'm not sure this is a whole lot better.
 
mad hatter syndrome

Well dodging madness might not be as hard for his son as it seems. Though his father was heavy handed most of his paranoid and violent behavior started after he began taking medication for pain. This unfortunately contained a lot of mercury.

If his son is healthy long enough or gets a medication free of toxic materials he will likely avoid paranoia and mood swings.
 
Well dodging madness might not be as hard for his son as it seems. Though his father was heavy handed most of his paranoid and violent behavior started after he began taking medication for pain. This unfortunately contained a lot of mercury.

If his son is healthy long enough or gets a medication free of toxic materials he will likely avoid paranoia and mood swings.

Not to mention that Ivan V didn't suffer the horribly abusive and traumatic childhood that Ivan Grozny did. No matter what dark or cruel tendencies the junior Ivan may have, it was the horrible things Ivan IV had to go through as a kid that really pushed him over the edge.

Of course, "more mentally stable than Ivan The Terrible" is not exactly an accomplishment.
 

Zioneer

Banned
More mentally stable than Ivan The Terrible is not exactly an accomplishment.

Indeed; Ivan V will definitely be a lot less vicious than his dad (though Ivan IV's cruelty may embitter his son a bit), and will probably be a more "benevolent" (by the standards of that time) ruler.

Oh, and sigged.
 
Indeed; Ivan V will definitely be a lot less vicious than his dad (though Ivan IV's cruelty may embitter his son a bit), and will probably be a more "benevolent" (by the standards of that time) ruler.

Oh, and sigged.
Based on his actions before his dad murdered him, he's a chip off the old block, alas. Just as savage to defeated political and military opponents, just as likely to burn a village down for sport. The only ways in which he was an improvement were 1) he was significantly nicer to his wife, although that may have been simple possessiveness (dad disposed of his first two, he was determined not to lose the third to his father's mad whims) and 2) he's at least theoretically capable of feeling himself safe and secure once his father is dead. Ivan IV caused wholesale destruction because he was a paranoid megalomaniac, Ivan V would do so because he was a regrettably typical Renaissance princeling.

So in many ways you're looking at a continuation of Ivan Grozny's reign. A lot depends on exactly what he destroys and when, and opinion is pretty divided over whether the last of the Rurikids dragged Russia into the then-modern age or simply crippled it in ways it's still healing from.
 
Well, you can look at it this way as well. His father was undeniably crazy, but he was able to help Russia unify and modernize a great deal. If his son was less crazy but just as competent then it might be a less painful version of his father.

Truthfully most of the great Czars were either a little crazy or could be politely called eccentric, and none of them were angels. I.e. Peter the Great, Katherine the Great, Ivan the Terrible, etc....... That is note entirely uncommon with autocrats though. I think it has to do with no one being able to challenge you legally or sanely on anything.
 
I'm sure a different dynasty in Russia would have been just as eccentric as their OTL counterparts. I'm not sure if a Vasa dynasty in Russia would have been insane at all though.
 
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