Italy vs USA 1891: your opinion?

  • American victory

    Votes: 25 54.3%
  • Italian victory

    Votes: 4 8.7%
  • Stalemate

    Votes: 17 37.0%

  • Total voters
    46
How well would the Italian boat handle the Atlantic? being built for the Med is different than a open ocean ship
 
Less Italian (and possibly Spanish or Catholic) inmigration to the US, and more to Argentina and other countries. Butterflies will be MASSIVE.
 
Good point. I had considered the French rivalry with Italy in the context of helping drag out the war, but now that you mention it the Italian fleet being away on raids or prize hunting would certainly create openings for France to push harder (particularly if French nationals get killed in attacks) on Rome. The legitimacy and strength of Italian control in Eretria is iffy at best, and after Fashoda France is still on the hunt for her colonial "jewel in the crown" that a consolidated East African Empire might provide. Now that she's in a period of Detente with Britain, would she use Italy's lack of naval power projection, need for French capital and resources, and diplomatic vulnerability to undermine her position in Ethiopia to try to establish their own protectorate there?

Pretty much. Rome becomes quite vulnerable, as they have to use a large component of their navy to even hope to project force enough to make a difference. But, in the event of this, I'd imagine there'd be French pressing. And if the Italians actually lose significant surface ships, then it's certain the French will move in on the Italian projects.

I had a vision of Italia steaming in convoy with the other 5 cruisers to try and make a quick raid on port. The US gets word and sends their cruisers to engage. It becomes a bit of a running battle, as the US cruisers take advantage of their speed due to not needing to conserve fuel to stay at range. Italia's guns cause some damage due to their range, but they can only bring two to bear so shots can't easily be made.

And, in the end, the US cruisers delay long enough for Puritan and Vesuvius to draw in close (the former being rushed into service, and the latter too short ranged to risk in a daytime engagement), with the latter's pneumatic guns stealthily firing and the Italians unable to locate the ship in the dusk without the bloom from gunfire. Puritan draws forward and engages Italia on the broadside, with her 4 12" guns being able to take chunks out of Italia's unarmored broadside and Italia being unable to depress her own guns enough to get a good bead on Puritan. It ends with the crippled Italian flagship having to strike its colors, and the rest of the Italian fleet fleeing to sea. The rest of the US vessels are battered, but are close enough to shore that none manages to founder even if one barely survives due to the efforts of its crew.

I mean, I don't see the Italians being that big of a gambler, but I can't think of any other way to engage the US successfully, as allowing a buildup of forces doesn't work for Italy, and going on raids risks triggering intervention while the US sits there and builds up.

How well would the Italian boat handle the Atlantic? being built for the Med is different than a open ocean ship

The cruisers would be fine, I feel. Etna et al were known to make visits to American countries OTL, and I haven't seen anything that noted they were particularly bad. Those were, of course, peacetime visits where fuel wasn't an issue.

Mind, if they actually get caught in a storm, that'd be the worst timing. And considering that Italy would declare war sometime mid 1891, that means they're right at the start of hurricane season. Could make things interesting.
 
Pretty much. Rome becomes quite vulnerable, as they have to use a large component of their navy to even hope to project force enough to make a difference. But, in the event of this, I'd imagine there'd be French pressing. And if the Italians actually lose significant surface ships, then it's certain the French will move in on the Italian projects.

I had a vision of Italia steaming in convoy with the other 5 cruisers to try and make a quick raid on port. The US gets word and sends their cruisers to engage. It becomes a bit of a running battle, as the US cruisers take advantage of their speed due to not needing to conserve fuel to stay at range. Italia's guns cause some damage due to their range, but they can only bring two to bear so shots can't easily be made.

And, in the end, the US cruisers delay long enough for Puritan and Vesuvius to draw in close (the former being rushed into service, and the latter too short ranged to risk in a daytime engagement), with the latter's pneumatic guns stealthily firing and the Italians unable to locate the ship in the dusk without the bloom from gunfire. Puritan draws forward and engages Italia on the broadside, with her 4 12" guns being able to take chunks out of Italia's unarmored broadside and Italia being unable to depress her own guns enough to get a good bead on Puritan. It ends with the crippled Italian flagship having to strike its colors, and the rest of the Italian fleet fleeing to sea. The rest of the US vessels are battered, but are close enough to shore that none manages to founder even if one barely survives due to the efforts of its crew.

I mean, I don't see the Italians being that big of a gambler, but I can't think of any other way to engage the US successfully, as allowing a buildup of forces doesn't work for Italy, and going on raids risks triggering intervention while the US sits there and builds up.

Seems like a good summery. I agree that it's a long shot for Italy to go for such a bold move... but if they're already pushing to the aggressive end by declaring war, they're going to have to "go big or go home" to avoid a huge international embaressment of starting a conflict and then not actually fighting it. Nobody would take them seriously if they showed even their harshest words to be empty air.

Having virtually her entire blue water capability at the bottom of the sea would really throw Italy on the diplomatic back foot though. Likely, unless she can buy some outdated hulls from Britain (unlikely, and even if they did they'd need months of training crews) at this point the international pressure to peace starts growing and Italy's going to have to pay an indemity and agree to stay out if the Western Hemisphere. This demonstrated to Europe a decade earlier that the US naval power has at least some teeth and she's willing to defend her hemisphere, while Italy finds her position colonially undermined, finances in worse order, and even more turmoil in government turnover.
 
Seems like a good summery. I agree that it's a long shot for Italy to go for such a bold move... but if they're already pushing to the aggressive end by declaring war, they're going to have to "go big or go home" to avoid a huge international embaressment of starting a conflict and then not actually fighting it. Nobody would take them seriously if they showed even their harshest words to be empty air.

Having virtually her entire blue water capability at the bottom of the sea would really throw Italy on the diplomatic back foot though. Likely, unless she can buy some outdated hulls from Britain (unlikely, and even if they did they'd need months of training crews) at this point the international pressure to peace starts growing and Italy's going to have to pay an indemity and agree to stay out if the Western Hemisphere. This demonstrated to Europe a decade earlier that the US naval power has at least some teeth and she's willing to defend her hemisphere, while Italy finds her position colonially undermined, finances in worse order, and even more turmoil in government turnover.

Pretty much. They could declare war and wait until they get access, but regardless of the US getting ready for war, they'd jst be the guys shouting "we're at war! seriously! at war! trust us! you'll be sorry! sometime! as we're at war!".

And yeah, I was trying to be generous and not even have any ships sunk (no wiping out one side or another) as the chances of scoring hits is... low, being about 1% about 10 years later, if I recall correctly. So Italy's mighty battleship will have to be scoring golden BBs, as otherwise they are outnumbered by the US, locally, in cruisers. And if the Italia pulls into range to use its subcaliber secondaries, and to make its big guns have a better chance of hitting, then the monitors that she might face will be very difficult to actually fight.

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In that case, assuming that Italia and one of the other cruisers is lost (say one is so badly damaged it has to be scuttled on the way back to Italy), and the US has two/three ships pretty badly damaged, but they make it back to port.

I'll assume that that is enough for Italy to just sue for peace, and the US, having lost nothing, accepts on the terms mentioned before, foreswearing any damages and agreeing for the US to handle any issues that Italy might have in the Americas.

In tat case, what might be the knock-ons on both of the navies? Might tthe US Navy, realizing how close things are, push for further expansion of the Navy? (A monitor for every port!) Will the Italians shift completely, or will the loss tof the war, cause the government to fall?
 
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