WI: Italian/Japanese Heavy Bomber

IJA did have the Mitsubishi Ki-20 Type 92 Heavy Bomber.

Since it was based of the Junkers G.38 passenger plane, had corrugated skin.
They had six, first built in 1931

11,000 pound bombload, 125mph top speed

They were planned to be used to attack US positions around Manila Bay, but were never used for that

air_ki20_2.jpg
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
The Japanese wanted to bomb Chongqing into submission but didn't have an aircraft with the bomb capacity for it. I could see them used in a role supporting both the invasion of Sichuan and Operation Ichi-Go. Breaking China would really have changed the calculus, all those aircraft and at least some of the garrison troops could be freed up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Chongqing

But how effective would it be? Why surrender a city or sue for peace if the Japanese can't threaten Chongqing via ground forces?

For instance Bomber Harris's campaign against Germany was of questionable success and is the topic of continued debate if it was worth it. And obviously Germany's attempt at defeating Britain via an air campaign was a failure.

Gas is scary but difficult to make lethal. Perhaps the best use of the bombers would be bioweapons.

Why would you expose your own troops to that? Plus the Japanese wanted to use China economically and even settled their citizens on the mainland. It makes little reason to use bioweapons.
 
But how effective would it be? Why surrender a city or sue for peace if the Japanese can't threaten Chongqing via ground forces?

For instance Bomber Harris's campaign against Germany was of questionable success and is the topic of continued debate if it was worth it. And obviously Germany's attempt at defeating Britain via an air campaign was a failure.



Why would you expose your own troops to that? Plus the Japanese wanted to use China economically and even settled their citizens on the mainland. It makes little reason to use bioweapons.
ask the Chinese about the breakouts of Bubonic Plague in their country. No I could believe they would be bonkers enough to do it.

Bombing campaign might be doable if the Japanese have decent air superiority and range. With supplies they would be able to do a number on the Chinese and with the timing in 1942 when Chiang was really thinking of surrendering (Especially after Stillwell's retreat.) might push him over the edge.
 

takerma

Banned
The most lethal mix would probably be chemical and incendiary. Chemical will disrupt firefighting and Chinese cities should be susceptible to firestorm just as much as Japanese cities were no?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
But how effective would it be? Why surrender a city or sue for peace if the Japanese can't threaten Chongqing via ground forces?

For instance Bomber Harris's campaign against Germany was of questionable success and is the topic of continued debate if it was worth it. And obviously Germany's attempt at defeating Britain via an air campaign was a failure.



Why would you expose your own troops to that? Plus the Japanese wanted to use China economically and even settled their citizens on the mainland. It makes little reason to use bioweapons.
The reason I brought up the bioweapons is because they did OTL.
 
The Japanese had both the capacity and the geopolitical position to develop modern long range strategic bombers.

In the late 1930's, Mitsubishi responded to the IJN's RFP for a new land-based long range bomber with a four-engine proposal. The IJN nixed that and instead the G4M "Betty" resulted. Some secondary sources say that vestiges of the original design can be seen in the G4M's large fuselage, which does seem more appropriate to larger 4-engined bomber. Had the IJN accepted Mitsubishi's initial proposal, Japan could have had a reasonable-sized strategic bomber force. Later, the IJN did order the Nakajima G8N Renzan as a heavy bomber, but only a few prototypes were built.

For some reason, the IJA did not seriously consider heavy bombers after their experiments with the license-built Junkers G.38

However, Japan did not have the capability to build heavy bombers in the numbers required to mount a sustained strategic bombing campaign. To do so would have required cancellation or reduction of many other more valuable IJN types, such as multi-engine flying boats, carrier-based planes, and light/medium bombers.

Had the Japanese developed any modern four-engine bombers and put them into operation, it is likely they would be in relatively small numbers and probably used more as long range maritime reconnaissance bombers with a secondary strategic bombing role.
 
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The Japanese built 167 Emilys over the course of the entire war, and they were very useful. There was a plan, never adopted, to build a bomber version, much as the Short Sunderland begat the Stirling.

If 60 square miles of Tokyo being incinerated didn't result in a surrender, why would Chongqing be different?

The air defense of Chongqing was delegated to the Flying Tigers, and subsequent 23rd Fighter Group. The commander was still Claire Chennault.

Ki59Laverne.jpg
 
The Japanese built 167 Emilys over the course of the entire war, and they were very useful. There was a plan, never adopted, to build a bomber version, much as the Short Sunderland begat the Stirling.

If 60 square miles of Tokyo being incinerated didn't result in a surrender, why would Chongqing be different?

The air defense of Chongqing was delegated to the Flying Tigers, and subsequent 23rd Fighter Group. The commander was still Claire Chennault.

Looks like you've cobbled together bits and pieces of the Emily, Ki-67 Hiryu, and forced Tachikawa to build it. The Emily was possibly the best flying boat of the entire war. It would have been a major mistake to redirect production away from the Emily to produce (probably fewer than 100) land-based bombers.
 
If 60 square miles of Tokyo being incinerated didn't result in a surrender, why would Chongqing be different?

The difference is i don't see Chiang Kai-shek as the kind of person who would fight to the death, just look at the conclusion of the Chinese Civil War. If the Japanese really bombed Chongqing, combined with naval shelling and a river assault, maybe he could be persuaded to come to terms.

The possibility of continued fighting looks pretty bleak from the Nationalists. They are in pretty bad shape having taken over a million military casualties, all of there best units and officer corps having been wiped out. On top of this the can't even properly feed the men left. Also due to the New Fourth Army and the Soviet-Japanese neutrality Pact he can't count on any major Communist support.

If you can't get him to surrender just getting him and his government to evacuate the city is good enough. Wang Jingwei's forces will gain more legitimacy and perhaps more Nationalists will defect to him, after all he is a former member of the KMT.
 
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Looks like you've cobbled together bits and pieces of the Emily, Ki-67 Hiryu, and forced Tachikawa to build it. The Emily was possibly the best flying boat of the entire war. It would have been a major mistake to redirect production away from the Emily to produce (probably fewer than 100) land-based bombers.

Short built 777 Sunderlands AND 2371 Stirlings. The word "redirect" is significant.
 
Short built 777 Sunderlands AND 2371 Stirlings. The word "redirect" is significant.

But Britain could produce far more combat aircraft than Japan - and Britain had access to Canada and the US for production. To expect Japan to produce over 2,000 large multi-engine planes - and continue to build the same number of fighters (shore and shipboard), medium/light bombers, etc. is probably unrealistic.

And if it wasn't, why not just build 2000 Emilies. They were well armored, well armed, and would probably have an equivalent offensive payload capability and performance to a specifically land-based variant.
 
But Britain could produce far more combat aircraft than Japan - and Britain had access to Canada and the US for production. To expect Japan to produce over 2,000 large multi-engine planes - and continue to build the same number of fighters (shore and shipboard), medium/light bombers, etc. is probably unrealistic.

And if it wasn't, why not just build 2000 Emilies. They were well armored, well armed, and would probably have an equivalent offensive payload capability and performance to a specifically land-based variant.

That's correct. They couldn't and didn't. I just drew a hypothetical airplane that they could have built.
 
The difference is i don't see Chiang Kai-shek as the kind of person who would fight to the death, just look at the conclusion of the Chinese Civil War.

Except if that were true he would have called it quits in '38-'39 after the Japanese had destroyed the Nationalists standing army.
 
Except if that were true he would have called it quits in '38-'39 after the Japanese had destroyed the Nationalists standing army.

I think he would keep fighting because he had a place to fall back to. As long as he feels secure at Chongqing he would keep resisting. If the Japanese make him feel trapped that's another story. Anyone have an idea were he would relocate to if holding Chongqing became unsustainable?
 
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