WI Islam won out in Europe?

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

...and why should the Saxons and Danes care more about the trade with the Arabs than their neighbours the Franks.

Christianity: the only rules forced on the Pagans was zero tolerance for other faiths and no human sacrifices.

Islam: Zero tolerance for other faiths, no human sacrifices, no eating pigs, no drinking alcohol, no using the blood of slaugthered animals and cut something of your dick.

Beside that Christianity had adapted to European culture for centuries, while Islam hadn't.

1) Probably for the same reasons as the Italians: the Muslims have better stuff/exotic goods, and are right there. With much of Europe under Muslim rule, the Saxons and Danes COULD convert. They wouldn't necessarily, but they could.

2) Christianity: Encouraged chastity, overturned almost all the pagan social institutions (excluding the ones it adapted/absorbed), suppressed pagan philosophies, required a complete overhaul in worldview. It's less of a leap from Christianity to Islam than Paganism to Christianity, honestly.

3) Did I say it would happen instantly? I figured the fact that it would be a very gradual shift, if it happened at all, was obvious. And of course Islam would be adapted to European culture in the long process, just as it was in China, India, and Malaya.

 

[LSCatilina]

reference, please?

(that and that's not what Sharia is...as we've pointed out in Chat many times)

Conquest of Al-Andalus by Almoravids, Aminid dictatorship, for quoting only Al-Andalus history.

Sharia is the ensemble of religous-moral-cultural legislation, from the purification before entering in a mosquee, from the cadres of a muslim society including trade, policies etc.
Because of its diversity, the Sharia could be used by a muslim power to justify both protection of dhimmi or their oppresion.

 

[Nassirisimo]

...and why should the Saxons and Danes care more about the trade with the Arabs than their neighbours the Franks.

Christianity: the only rules forced on the Pagans was zero tolerance for other faiths and no human sacrifices.

Islam: Zero tolerance for other faiths, no human sacrifices, no eating pigs, no drinking alcohol, no using the blood of slaugthered animals and cut something of your dick.

Beside that Christianity had adapted to European culture for centuries, while Islam hadn't.

Wait, zero tolerance for other faiths in Islam? What the hell are you talking about? There were widespread Jewish and Christian communities in the Muslim world at this time, and Muslims usually tended to tolerate any faith they found living in their lands. Eating Pigs and Drinking alcohol are likely to be the clinchers (Pigs are more useful in Europe then the Middle East, and Alcohol was the only clean drink available in Europe for centuries). Also, something tells me that Circumcision may not be as high on the list as other Islamic requirements (regular prayers, ect).

 

[Pachac]

Even in most modern Jewish sources it was generally accepted that the Muslims were much, much better than the Christians when it came to tolerance. Jews held many important positions, and were highly influential, especially in urban areas such as Cordoba and Baghdad. Widespread persecutions of pagans only started, I believe, under the Seljuks and Mamelukes, the first because of being newer converts to the faith and more enthusiastic about spreading it, the second because of the whole crusaders mess.

 

[Pachac]

Back to the subject at hand, the best I can come up with is for the Muslims to gain a better foothold in Italy and beat Naples on behalf of Benevento, then turn on Benevento afterwards. Even then it would really push a pressure point in Europe and in the late 800s Abbasid rule was fainting, which made it more difficult for Sicily to defend itself.

 

[Valdemar II]

Wait, zero tolerance for other faiths in Islam? What the hell are you talking about? There were widespread Jewish and Christian communities in the Muslim world at this time, and Muslims usually tended to tolerate any faith they found living in their lands. Eating Pigs and Drinking alcohol are likely to be the clinchers (Pigs are more useful in Europe then the Middle East, and Alcohol was the only clean drink available in Europe for centuries). Also, something tells me that Circumcision may not be as high on the list as other Islamic requirements (regular prayers, ect).

Yes there was some tolerance for people of the book, but if you were pagan there was zero tolerance, and most people in the areas, which is suggested to convert is pagans. As súch Islam in Northern Europe would be de facto be as intolerant of other faiths as Christianity.

 

[Nassirisimo]

Yes there was some tolerance for people of the book, but if you were pagan there was zero tolerance, and most people in the areas, which is suggested to convert is pagans. As súch Islam in Northern Europe would be de facto be as intolerant of other faiths as Christianity.

The only Pagans they treated with zero tolerance in practice were the Arabian Pagans who had persecuted the Muslims in Makkah. Although the Islamic conquest of India could be fairly brutal at times, the Hindus, despite being functionally Pagan were treated like people of the book. Its a big assumption to be assuming that Islam would be as intolerant as Christianity was to the Pagans in northern Europe.

Back to the subject at hand, the best I can come up with is for the Muslims to gain a better foothold in Italy and beat Naples on behalf of Benevento, then turn on Benevento afterwards. Even then it would really push a pressure point in Europe and in the late 800s Abbasid rule was fainting, which made it more difficult for Sicily to defend itself.

It's actually very difficult to have an Islam that manages to take over most of Europe. Constantinople needs to be taken as well as Gaul, and maybe that would weaken Christendoms power centers enough so that in the long run, Islam would win out, but im not quite sure how the Abbasids could take over pretty much all of Christendom, as they have too many other fronts to worry about.

 

[Pachac]

It's actually very difficult to have an Islam that manages to take over most of Europe. Constantinople needs to be taken as well as Gaul, and maybe that would weaken Christendoms power centers enough so that in the long run, Islam would win out, but im not quite sure how the Abbasids could take over pretty much all of Christendom, as they have too many other fronts to worry about.

Of course, but Italy is the only conceivable area of expansion I can think of barring a victory at Tours and an actual invasion later into France.

 

[Nassirisimo]

Of course, but Italy is the only conceivable area of expansion I can think of barring a victory at Tours and an actual invasion later into France.

Well, Italy is a possiblity, as if im correct, the Arabs navally dominated the Mediterranean at this time (though the Byzantines could hold them off). I was thinking France and the ERE being the clinches since the Franks spread Christianity into Germany later on, meaning less spread of Christianity if they are taken out. If the strongest Christian power in the east is taken out (prehaps someone forgets to lock a gate at one of the seiges of Constantinople ) then that would take away both a major barrier to the Arabs and a source of strength to Christians in the east. Either way, if you take both of these places, then Christianity may not have the strength to sustain itself in Europe, politically at least.