WI Islam loses North Africa and the Near East

Eurofed

Banned
the Schism wasn't an argument over which See was most powerful...it was about doctrine. is Christ equal or slightly-subordinate (to/from) His Father, and a host of other issues.

The Filioque issue was taken as the hallmark of a deeper problem about Papal authority arbitrarily changing hallowed doctrine. The Holy See pretenses to absolute final authority were the real problem, if that is taken down, mutual trust shall be enough to find a compromise about the Filioque (there was theological room for that) that shall make the maistream opinion of both camps content.

in that era, England kept losing control of Wales and Scotland, while France and Spain had numerous uprisings every other year.

That's a blatant exaggeration.

so is Russia, yet you didn't touch that area.

The main powers in Eastern Europe, the HRE and ERE, got busy entrenching their authority over Poland/Hunbgary and the Balkans respectively, then they went into the Middle East, then America shall show up. They can't go anywhere, so they go after what is closer or more profitable than the steppes.

Moreover, that's not true. ITTL Muscowy and "Lithuania" have expanded more by 1500 than IOTL.

why would Crusaders tolerate heretics? it goes against what the Catholic Christians were doing to heretics in Europe.

Levels of realpolitick. Heretics in Europe were typically a cultural mask that socio-political unrest took. In the Middle East, they may be a useful power ploy against a worse problem (the Muslims). Divide and conquer.

why would the Orthodox be happy about people who take orders from those who don't believe in God? I think they'd prefer Muslim rule over that.

This statement does not appear to make any sense. Since when Atheists conquered Europe ? :confused:

forgotten about the Copts already?

See my point above. I was trying to address a different point raised by Aranfan.

or by the 15th century, has this HRE killed them all?

Are you done with the snide remarks ?
 

Keenir

Banned
That's a blatant exaggeration.

England was able to take over the British Isles twice:
  • once by waiting until the Vikings had removed all the rival kings from the Islands.
  • the second time by militarily crushing Wales and marrying into Scotland's nobility.
in neither case did it bring an end to all decentralization.



Spain only exists because of marriage unifying...and even Spain has decentralist elements.

The main powers in Eastern Europe, the HRE and ERE, got busy entrenching their authority over Poland/Hunbgary and the Balkans respectively, then they went into the Middle East, then America shall show up. They can't go anywhere, so they go after what is closer or more profitable than the steppes.

Egypt and Nubia are closer to Germany than Russia is?


Levels of realpolitick. Heretics in Europe were typically a cultural mask that socio-political unrest took. In the Middle East, they may be a useful power ploy against a worse problem (the Muslims). Divide and conquer.

see earlier comments about how Catholics saw Muslims as less heretical than some of the other Christian groups.


This statement does not appear to make any sense. Since when Atheists conquered Europe ? :confused:

you said Europe is ruled by secular rulers telling the churches what to do. if this is while Byzantium is still around, you've just alienated the Second Rome, because to them, the Emperor is not secular.


Are you done with the snide remarks ?

I'm not making snide remarks. you're talking about crusaders taking over the Middle East and Egypt and Nubia. this is, numbers-wise, on the same level as Greeks taking over Asia Minor in the 1920s.
 
the Schism wasn't an argument over which See was most powerful...it was about doctrine. is Christ equal or slightly-subordinate (to/from) His Father, and a host of other issues.
Ummm.... no. It was almost entirely a matter of power politics. The only SERIOUS theological difference was whether the Pope had the authority of Peter.

Certainly, there were minor differences of doctrine but they were puffed HUGELY out of proportion due to the political differences.

Even the whole Filioque clause thing was far more a political thing than an actual theological difference. In the West, the Pope said it was OK, so it was OK. In the East, the unilateral amendment of the Nicene creed was ... not taken well.

The West didn't do it to subordinate the 3rd person of the Trinity (as the Orthodox claimed), but rather to strengthen the 2nd. The clause was first introduced in border marches abutting Visigothic, Arian Spain, and slowly spread, finally winning the Pope's approval rather later.

There are also minor differences on what 'happens' during transubstantiation, with the Greeks using Platonic philosophy to describe it and the West (somebody else)'s. The fact that one of the major differences of theology between the two churches is a matter of which pagan Greek is right tells you how minor the differences really are.:)
 

Eurofed

Banned
England was able to take over the British Isles twice:
  • once by waiting until the Vikings had removed all the rival kings from the Islands.
  • the second time by militarily crushing Wales and marrying into Scotland's nobility.
in neither case did it bring an end to all decentralization.

Spain only exists because of marriage unifying...and even Spain has decentralist elements.

This hasn't stopped neither country by building huge overseas colonial empires and successfully holding them for centuries. The examples are irrelevant for the prupose of this discussion.

Egypt and Nubia are closer to Germany than Russia is?

I said "closer of more valuable". Egypt is more valuable in the 14th-15th century.

see earlier comments about how Catholics saw Muslims as less heretical than some of the other Christian groups.

Rather questionable assumption.

you said Europe is ruled by secular rulers telling the churches what to do. if this is while Byzantium is still around, you've just alienated the Second Rome, because to them, the Emperor is not secular.

The position of the various rulers at the head of their respective national churches would be wholly analogous to the one of the ERE Emperor at the head of the Orthodox Church, or if you wish of the King of England at the head of the Church of England. None of them would of course be "secular" as "irreligious", all of them would be as "not a member of clergy".

I'm not making snide remarks. you're talking about crusaders taking over the Middle East and Egypt and Nubia.

If the Arabs could do it, it can certainly be done by three empires that in combination cover Iberia, Occitania, eastern France, Low Countries, Germany, Italy, western Poland, western Hungary, the Balkans, and Anatolia.

this is, numbers-wise, on the same level as Greeks taking over Asia Minor in the 1920s.

The comparison is as ridiculous as the chosen example is telling. :rolleyes:
 

Eurofed

Banned
Ummm.... no. It was almost entirely a matter of power politics. The only SERIOUS theological difference was whether the Pope had the authority of Peter.

Certainly, there were minor differences of doctrine but they were puffed HUGELY out of proportion due to the political differences.

Even the whole Filioque clause thing was far more a political thing than an actual theological difference. In the West, the Pope said it was OK, so it was OK. In the East, the unilateral amendment of the Nicene creed was ... not taken well.

The West didn't do it to subordinate the 3rd person of the Trinity (as the Orthodox claimed), but rather to strengthen the 2nd. The clause was first introduced in border marches abutting Visigothic, Arian Spain, and slowly spread, finally winning the Pope's approval rather later.

There are also minor differences on what 'happens' during transubstantiation, with the Greeks using Platonic philosophy to describe it and the West (somebody else)'s. The fact that one of the major differences of theology between the two churches is a matter of which pagan Greek is right tells you how minor the differences really are.:)

Exactly. The Latin-Greek divide was (and is) about Papal power from top to bottom.
 

Keenir

Banned
This hasn't stopped neither country by building huge overseas colonial empires

if you told an Englishman in the 13th century that England will hold huge overseas empires, he'd probably ask you if they'd finally beaten the Scots.


The position of the various rulers at the head of their respective national churches would be wholly analogous to the one of the ERE Emperor at the head of the Orthodox Church, or if you wish of the King of England at the head of the Church of England. None of them would of course be "secular" as "irreligious", all of them would be as "not a member of clergy".

the Byzantine Emperor was seen as superior to the clergy, able to tell them what to do.


If the Arabs could do it, it can certainly be done by three empires that in combination cover Iberia, Occitania, eastern France, Low Countries, Germany, Italy, western Poland, western Hungary, the Balkans, and Anatolia.

and you haven't heard a single thing, have you? the Arab armies were being driven by the zeal of the newly-converted.

and you still haven't answered why three separate empires would work together on this.

why wouldn't the Byzantines just let the Germans do all the heavy lifting, and when Imperial Overreach sets in, the Byzantines come in and take over when both the Arabs, Copts, and Germans are too exhausted to protest?


The comparison is as ridiculous as the chosen example is telling. :rolleyes:

as telling that you haven't a clue what happened with Greece in the 1920s.

the Crusaders might be able to take the huge territory you suggest IF they get massively lucky. they will NOT be able to hold all of that.
 

Eurofed

Banned
if you told an Englishman in the 13th century that England will hold huge overseas empires, he'd probably ask you if they'd finally beaten the Scots.

Only proof that the future holds marvels untold by the men and women of the current age. The relevance of this point in the discussion ?

the Byzantine Emperor was seen as superior to the clergy, able to tell them what to do.

Same as the King of England IOTL, the HRE Emperor, Angevine Emperor, Iberian Emperor, ITTL.

and you haven't heard a single thing, have you? the Arab armies were being driven by the zeal of the newly-converted.

And ITTL the Europeans are driven by the self-confidence of their new strength. What shall drive them, a century later IOTL and ITTL, to colonize the Americas. What did you say about a steamroller ?

and you still haven't answered why three separate empires would work together on this.

Haven't you read my answer ? Because all three empires stand to gain from this.

why wouldn't the Byzantines just let the Germans do all the heavy lifting, and when Imperial Overreach sets in, the Byzantines come in and take over when both the Arabs, Copts, and Germans are too exhausted to protest?

Because they are busy conquering their own share of the Muslim spoils (Levant, Mesopotamia) which are closer and just as valuable to them. Because in alliances where everyone stands to gain, partners do not necessarily and typically aim to backstab each other on purpose. Not every leader is a Hitler or Stalin.

as telling that you haven't a clue what happened with Greece in the 1920s.

I know it well, thanks. But the circumstances are massively different. Here the invading Europeans empires have not just exausted themselves into fighting a world war. Conquest of North Africa and the Near East (I try not to use the term Middle East since Persia is left unconquered, and Arabia is only swept in a later phase) occurs in the historical niche between consolidation of Europe and colonization of the Americas, so they can give it the bulk of their energies. If Britain, France, Italy had not been exhausted, Greece would have won, and Ataturk met an early end to his unsuccessful career as nationalist leader in battle (or before a firing squad).

the Crusaders might be able to take the huge territory you suggest IF they get massively lucky. they will NOT be able to hold all of that.

Because an empire of that size in those lands cannot stand, right ? Let me check who did the feat for centuries: Persians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs... Not to mention that ITTL the area is divided between different imperial powers.
 
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Keenir

Banned
Same as the King of England IOTL, the HRE Emperor, Angevine Emperor, Iberian Emperor, ITTL.

no; with the exception of the Anglican denomination, all of those Emperors were, in principle, subordinate to the Pope. in Byzantium, the Church is subordinate to the Emperor.


And ITTL the Europeans are driven by the self-confidence of their new strength. What shall drive them, a century later IOTL and ITTL, to colonize the Americas. What did you say about a steamroller ?

the Americas pitted guns against spears...this would be a battle of equal tech levels.


Haven't you read my answer ? Because all three empires stand to gain from this.

equally? it's one thing to say (as in OTL) that all Christian Empires want the Holy Land freed...but when the Crusaders seize there, then they start fighting among themselves over who gets what (also as in OTL)


Here the invading Europeans empires have not just exausted themselves into fighting a world war. Conquest of North Africa and the Near East

yeah - conquering a lot of desert full of people who would rather you not killed them, and are willing to fight to stay that way.

(I try not to use the term Middle East since Persia is left unconquered, and Arabia is only swept in a later phase) occurs in the historical niche between consolidation of Europe and colonization of the Americas, so they can give it the bulk of their energies. If Britain, France, Italy had not been exhausted, Greece would have won,

you're assuming Britain and France would permit a continuation of the genocide the Greeks were committing in Anatolia.


Because an empire of that size in those lands cannot stand, right ?

never said that. I said it can't stand while the natives are pissed, which they would be for a very very long time.

Let me check who did the feat for centuries: Persians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs...

...and all of them suffered from numerous uprisings, rebellions, and lost territory more than once each.

Not to mention that ITTL the area is divided between different imperial powers.

oh great, and border conflicts too? (or are all three empires going to be the bestest of friends for ever and ever?)
 

Typo

Banned
just sack and christianize mecca after invading the holy land it will secure the holy land.
Holy crap the amount of confusion about Islam, Christianity, the near east, and the Middle Ages in general is either amazing or people are being sarcastic
 

Eurofed

Banned
no; with the exception of the Anglican denomination, all of those Emperors were, in principle, subordinate to the Pope. in Byzantium, the Church is subordinate to the Emperor.

ITTL the Papacy has utterly lost the fight for supremacy with the Western monarchies and has all but vanished, the theocratic doctrine of Gregory VII has been condemned by the Council as heretic, and the national churches are subordinate to their monarchs. So what ?

equally? it's one thing to say (as in OTL) that all Christian Empires want the Holy Land freed...but when the Crusaders seize there, then they start fighting among themselves over who gets what (also as in OTL)

Yes, equally. North Africa (to Iberia), Levant and Mesopotamia (to ERE), and Egypt-Nubia (to HRE) all have comparable value for the various parties. Differently fro what you seem to expect, the European powers are not necessarily dumb backstabbers that aren't able to come up with a mutually profitable alliance and a sensible division of spoils.

you're assuming Britain and France would permit a continuation of the genocide the Greeks were committing in Anatolia.

As if they would care. Britain and Italy crushed revolts in their own Arab colonies by methods that qualified as war crimes.

oh great, and border conflicts too? (or are all three empires going to be the bestest of friends for ever and ever?)

Of course not, but this doesn't mean that they are specifically going to have conflicts about their Middle Eastern borders. On the contrary, as long as the natives remain restless, since the powers each have their own sizable turfs, they are more likely descalate such regional conflicts rather than escalate them. Common enemies and mutual benefits make for good allies.
 

Keenir

Banned
ITTL the Papacy has utterly lost the fight for supremacy with the Western monarchies and has all but vanished, the theocratic doctrine of Gregory VII has been condemned by the Council as heretic, and the national churches are subordinate to their monarchs. So what ?

so you're talking about something equivilent to splitting the world between Spanish and Portugese domains in OTL - without anyone that nations can agree to have as a mediator or divider.

Yes, equally. North Africa (to Iberia), Levant and Mesopotamia (to ERE), and Egypt-Nubia (to HRE) all have comparable value for the various parties.

why does Spain not want the holiest city in Christendom? and why doesn't the HRE want it either?

after all, to them, the Byzantines held that city and lost it.


As if they would care. Britain and Italy crushed revolts in their own Arab colonies by methods that qualified as war crimes.

they cared in OTL and tried to stop the Greeks.




Common enemies and mutual benefits make for good allies.

ie the USA and Iran, since both are enemies of the Taliban.

er, wait.
 

Typo

Banned
Again, you are proposing European Kingdoms of the 1100-1300s acting like colonizing nations of the 1600-1800s
 

Eurofed

Banned
Again, you are proposing European Kingdoms of the 1100-1300s acting like colonizing nations of the 1600-1800s

Actually it is in all likelihood European Kingdoms of the 1400s-1500s. I am expecting the 15th century, more or less, for the first wave that sweeps North Africa, Egypt, Levant, and Mesopotamia, and Arabia to be invaded in the early 16th century.
 

Typo

Banned
No, European kingdoms of the 1400-1500s never and were never in the position to partition the near east amongst themselves like they did in the 19th century. It's one thing to slaughter tribal natives and bronze age level empires, another to conquer a people who is technologically more advanced than themselves. Asking them to do so in the 1400s-1500s is just dealing with a different set of impossible obstacles as 1100-1300s

it's not that hard to screw over Islam during the crusades: conquering Egypt and Syria will split the Islamic world into two. North Africa will eventually fall to the Spanish or the French. Mesopotamia will be devastated by the Mongols. So all that's really left are the Turks, Persia, and Arabia. You are left with a bunch of independent Christian kingdoms in the middle-east which puts a brake on de-christianisation of the area. That's plausible. But the uber-Europe wank you are aiming for isn't really plausible. But I'm just repeating myself over and over again and you are ignoring me
 

Eurofed

Banned
No, European kingdoms of the 1400-1500s never and were never in the position to partition the near east amongst themselves like they did in the 19th century. It's one thing to slaughter tribal natives and bronze age level empires, another to conquer a people who is technologically more advanced than themselves. Asking them to do so in the 1400s-1500s is just dealing with a different set of impossible obstacles as 1100-1300s.

Surely the Muslim world was not really more technologically advanced than Europe in the 1400s-1500s. Its previous technological advantage on Europe had vanished.

So it is plausible that in the same timeframe our Ottoman Empire conquered the Balkans and came very near to breakout in Central Europe, yet a Europe which never lost Anatolia and reconquered Iberia much faster cannot conquer North Africa and the Near East ? It does not fit.
 
Surely the Muslim world was not really more technologically advanced than Europe in the 1400s-1500s. Its previous technological advantage on Europe had vanished.

Actually, only by 1500, middle of the Renaissance, had tech level equalized.

IIRC.
 

Eurofed

Banned
So, I have been rethinking this rather important part of the TL for a while, in the light of the discussion here.

DIfferently from my previous assumptions on the issue, I can understand and accept the arguments that a radical reChristianization of conquered North Africa and the Middle East a la Reconquista is likely unfeasible (even if I really see no valid reason why Iberia itself should not be reChristianized as radically as IOTL), even if an European conquest would stop ongoing deChristianization of the region, and thus keep it much more religiously mixed than IOTL. If European conquest of the area wants to endure, it would need to adopt some amount of pragmatic de facto tolerance. OTOH, if European conquerors are going to give up such radical assimilation efforts in order to make their rule more manageable, they are also going to be much more tolerant of doctrinal differences with local Christian communities.

I remain however far more skeptical of why TTL European powers should find it so difficult to conquer the Near East and stabilize their rule there, esp. if they eventually give up radical assimilation.

First, I am rather skeptical that 15th century Europe really still suffered a significant technological gap with the Muslim world IOTL, and even if it did, surely TTL developments (stronger political stability fostering early rise of trade-based urban society) is going to wholly wipe it out much earlier than OTL.

Second, I cannot understand why invading 15th century European powers should be radically unable to develop an effective mutually-beneficial alliance and division of turfs across the Muslim world. Some amount of relatively minor squabbles, occasionally exploding into armed conflicts, are indeed likely and perhaps inevitable, but radical estrangement exploding in total war and wrecking their conquest effort is a possible outcome but not mandated by any means. Certainly 16th century powers were able to achieve such a largely effective division of spheres of influence about colonization of the Americas, and the political differences with the previous century were minor. And papal authority about this was an unnecessary figleaf, the powers mostly stuck to the proposed division because it seemed a sensible compromise, 16th century monarchs were totally able to ignore papal authority when it messed with their vital interests, Canossa was dead and buried. So it does not really seem necessary ITTL to coordinate a new Crusade, secular diplomacy can do it on its own as necessary.

Third, the economic-demographic balance of power and resource committment for TTL 15th century Europe and the Muslim world does not really seem to make an Euro conquest so unlikely, if the Euro powers temporarily make a coherent effort. Let's not forget that the Muslim world would lack some rather significant assets ITTL, Anatolia was never lost by the Byzantines and the Reconquista was done much earlier, and the Euro powers would have a much larger power base than IOTL back home. Even if European encroachment would pull Islam back closer to political unity into an ATL equivalent of an Ottoman Empire spanning the Near East, it is still feasible for an Euro parallel invasion, if not quite possibly outright alliance, to crush it militarly.

Granted that the success of Euro conquest of the Near East requires the Euro powers keeping a functional alliance of convenience, and this is by no means granted, but neither any impossible either, I still have to see a really convincing argument why the 15th century Near East would be so awesome that such an Euro conquest of it was so implausible with TTL optimized 15th century Europe.
 
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