WI: Isabella Fitz Robert, Countess of Gloucester isn't divorced from King John?

1166: Prince John of England is born.

1173: Isabella Fitz Robert is born.

1176: Betrothed to Prince John of England. Sister's disinherited and thus Isabella is the sole heir to Gloucester.

1189: Marries Prince John of England.

1190: Henry of Gloucester is born.

1191: William of Gloucester is born.

1192: Richard of Gloucester is born.

1193: Isabella of Gloucester suffers a miscarriage.

1194: Matilda of Gloucester is born.

1196: Geoffrey of Gloucester is born. Dies later that year.

1197: Arthur of Gloucester is born.

1199: Isabella of Gloucester gives birth to a stillborn boy.

1200: Prince John of England makes a play for the throne and becomes John I of England.

1201: Henry of Gloucester, now Prince Henry, marries Isabella of Angouleme.

1203: Eleanor of England is born to John I of England.

1206: Isabella of Angouleme suffers a miscarriage.

1207: Henry of England and Isabella of Angouleme have Prince Richard.

1208: Matilda of Gloucester marries Louis, Dauphin of France.

1209: Matilda of England and Louis, Dauphin of France have Blanche of France.

1210: Henry of England and Isabella of Angouleme have Prince William. Matilda of England and Louis, Dauphin of France have Philip of France.

1211: Henry of England and Isabella of Angouleme have Princess Joan.

1212: Matilda of England and Louis, Dauphin of France have John of France. As part of the dowry, John J of England gives up Normandy and any claims to Normandy.

1214: Matilda of England and Louis, Dauphin of France have Louis of France. Henry of England and Isabella of Angouleme have Prince John.

1215: Matilda of England and Louis, Dauphin of France have Isabelle of France.

1216: John I of England is killed in the Baron's Rebellion and his son ascends as Henry III of England.

1217: Isabella of Angouleme dies.

Isabella, Countess of Gloucester (b.1173: d.1217) m. John I of England (b.1166: d.1216) (a)
1a) Henry III of England (b.1190: d.1235) m. Isabella of Angouleme (b.1188: d.1246) (a)
1a) Richard of England (b.1207)

2a) William of England (b.1210)

3a) Joan of England (b.1211)

4a) John of England (b.1214: d.1220)

5a) Alice of England (b.1219)

6a) Miscarriage (c.1222)
2a) William of Gloucester, Duke of Aquitaine (b.1191) m. Blanche of Castile (b.1188: d.1252) (a)
1a) Eleanor of Aquitaine (b.1210)

2a) Marie of Aquitaine (b.1211)

3a) Richard of Aquitaine (b.1215)
3a) Richard of Gloucester (b.1192: d.1250) m. Joanna I of Burgundy (b.1191: d.1210) (a)
1a) Margaret Plantagenet (b.1205)

2a) Otto II of Burgundy (b.1208)
4a) Miscarriage (c.1193)

5a) Matilda of Gloucester (b.1194) m. Louis VIII of France (b.1187) (a)
1a) Blanche of France (b.1209)

2a) Philip, Dauphin of France (b.1210)

3a) John of France (b.1212: d.1223)

4a) Louis of France (b.1214)

5a) Isabelle of France (b.1215)

6a) Robert of France (b.1218: d.1219)

7a) Magdalena of France (b.1224)
6a) Geoffrey of Gloucester (b.1196: d.1196)

7a) Arthur, Earl of Gloucester (b.1197: d.1269) m. Isabelle FitzAlan (b.1200: d.1225) (a), Elizabeth of Brandenburg (b.1207: d.1242) (b)
1a) Margaret of Gloucester (b.1222: d.1222)

2b) Matilda of Gloucester (b.1233: d.1233)
8a) Stillborn Boy (c.1199)

9a) Eleanor of England (b.1203) m. Hugh X of Lusignan (b.1195: d.1249) (a)
1a) Hugh XI of Lusignan (b.1223)

2a) William de Lusignan, Bishop of Winchester (b.1224)

3a) Agnes de Lusignan (b.1228)

4a) Guy of Lusignan (b.1231: d.1241)
10a) Miscarriage (c.1206)
 
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Looks very interesting, what prevents JOhn divorcing Isabella? The fact she's given him children? And what effect does tihs have on his wars with france? Also, what impact does having an older Henry III have on the baron wars?
 
One of the conditions of the papal dispensation allowing John and Isabella of Gloucester to marry forbade them from having sexual relations, and there's nothing to suggest John ever showed any interest in her otherwise, so, to me at least, this POD is near-impossible.
 
One of the conditions of the papal dispensation allowing John and Isabella of Gloucester to marry forbade them from having sexual relations, and there's nothing to suggest John ever showed any interest in her otherwise, so, to me at least, this POD is near-impossible.

Why were they forbidden from having sexual relations? Was she his sister or something? :p
 
I forgot to make this clear. The POD is that the dispension doesn't prevent them from having sexual relations, thus allowing children. OTL, it seems John only divorced her when he came to the throne and needed an heir. So ITL, he doesn't and thus stays with Isabella.
 
I forgot to make this clear. The POD is that the dispension doesn't prevent them from having sexual relations, thus allowing children. OTL, it seems John only divorced her when he came to the throne and needed an heir. So ITL, he doesn't and thus stays with Isabella.

Okay and in answer to previous questions?
 
Okay and in answer to previous questions?

Oh, the reason why they weren't allowed to have sexual relations OTL? I think it was just due to their relatively close relationship compared to other noble matches at the time. They were second cousins. Maybe the Pope didn't feel comfortable with it?
 
Oh, the reason why they weren't allowed to have sexual relations OTL? I think it was just due to their relatively close relationship compared to other noble matches at the time. They were second cousins. Maybe the Pope didn't feel comfortable with it?

Okay and what effect does having a near adult Henry have on the barons war?
 
Okay and what effect does having a near adult Henry have on the barons war?

He most likely leads the rebellion and thus there is no reason for them to even consider putting King Louis on the throne. And if Henry III ITL does anythubg wrong, there is always William, Richard or Arthur to replace him with.
 
He most likely leads the rebellion and thus there is no reason for them to even consider putting King Louis on the throne. And if Henry III ITL does anythubg wrong, there is always William, Richard or Arthur to replace him with.

Oh why would he lead the rebels?
 
Oh why would he lead the rebels?

Possible dissatisfaction with his father and ambition. It is entirely possible that the 26 year old, with his growing family, may want to take the throne then. He may also feel that their complaints are valid and that, after almost 2 decades of misrule, King John had los the right to rule as he was. The death of his father may not have been to his plans, but the Prince's ascension ITL would have been
 
Possible dissatisfaction with his father and ambition. It is entirely possible that the 26 year old, with his growing family, may want to take the throne then. He may also feel that their complaints are valid and that, after almost 2 decades of misrule, King John had los the right to rule as he was. The death of his father may not have been to his plans, but the Prince's ascension ITL would have been

Hmm very interesting. What would Henry be like?
 
Hmm very interesting. What would Henry be like?

Henry III of England is a quiet man with a quiet wife. Ambitious for his children's sake, in 1215 rumours begin swirling that his more martial brother William, the obvious favourite, will be ascending to the Throne of England after John I's death. This, along with the general discontent of the nobility that Henry hears, leads him to take the forefront of the Baron's Rebellion. His father would be buried as befitting a King, as was Henry III's way. He believes in rank and ceremony, but also the duty of the monarch the lessers.
 
1a) Henry III of England (b.1190: d.1235) m. Isabella of Angouleme (b.1188: d.1246) (a)
1a) Richard II of England (b.1207: d.1270) m. Sophie of Jülich (b.1209: d.1258) (a)
1a) Eleanor of England (b.1230)

2a) Henry of England (b.1232: d.1234)

3a) Richard of England (b.1233: d.1237)

4a) John of England (b.1238)

5a) Alice of England (b.1243: d.1243)

6a) Geoffrey of England (b.1244: d.1244)
2a) William of England (b.1210) - Bishop

3a) Joan of England (b.1211: d.1258) m. William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke (b.1190: d.1231) (a), Simon de Montfort, 6th Earl of Leicester (b.1208: d.1265) b)
1a) Edward Marshal, Earl of Pembroke (b.1229)

2a) Matthew Marshal (b.1230: d.1233)

3a) Robert Marshal (b.1231: d.1232)

4b) Henry de Montfort, Earl of Leicester (b.1239)

5b) Eleanor de Montfort (b.1242)
4a) John of England (b.1214: d.1220)

5a) Alice of England (b.1219: d.1280) m. Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1194: d.1250) (a)
1a) Jordan of Hohenstaufen (b.1240: d.1240)

2a) Henry Otto of Hohenstaufen (b.1244)

3a) Margaret of Hohenstaufen (b.1245)

3a) Miscarriage (c.1250)
6a) Miscarriage (c.1222)
2a) William of Gloucester, Duke of Aquitaine (b.1191) m. Blanche of Castile (b.1188: d.1252) (a)
1a) Eleanor of Aquitaine (b.1210: d.1239) m. James I of Aragon (b.1208: d.1276) (a)
1a) Catherine of Aragon (b.1235)

2a) James II of Aragon (b.1238)
2a) Marie of Aquitaine (b.1211)

3a) Richard, Duke of Aquitaine (b.1215: d.1245) m. Violant of Hungary (b.1215: d.1251) (a)
1a) Yolande of Aquitaine (b.1237)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1239)

3a) Andrew, Duke of Aquitaine (b.1244)
3a) Richard of Gloucester (b.1192: d.1250) m. Joanna I of Burgundy (b.1191: d.1210) (a)
1a) Margaret Plantagenet (b.1205: d.1224)

2a) Otto II of Burgundy (b.1208:d.1255) m. Berengaria of Castile (b.1228: d.1289) (a)
1a) Agnes of Burgundy (b.1247)

2a) Anne of Burgundy (b.1250)

3a) Otto III of Burgundy (b.1252)

4a) Frederick of Burgundy (b.1256)
4a) Miscarriage (c.1193)

5a) Matilda of Gloucester (b.1194: d.1270) m. Louis VIII of France (b.1187: d.1248) (a)
1a) Blanche of France (b.1209) m. Matthias, Duke of Lorraine (b.1193: d.1251) (a)
1a) Isabella of Lorraine (b.1239)

2a) Frederick, Duke of Lorraine (b.1244)

3a) Adelaide of Lorraine (b.1244)
2a) Philip, Dauphin of France (b.1210: d.1244) m. Catherine of Luxembourg (b.1215: d.1255)
1a) Alys of France (b.1234: d.1238)

2a) Louis IX of France (b.1235)

3a) Magdalena of France (b.1236)

4a) Stillborn Boy (c.1238)

5a) James of France, Count of Artois (b.1240)

6a) Miscarriage (c.1243)
3a) John of France, Count of Artois (b.1212: d.1223)

4a) Louis of France, Count of Poitou and Auvergne (b.1214: d.1240)

5a) Isabelle of France (b.1215) - Abbess

6a) Robert of France (b.1218: d.1219)

7a) Magdalena of France (b.1224: d.1289) John I of Dreux (b.1215: d.1249) (a)
6a) Geoffrey of Gloucester (b.1196: d.1196)

7a) Arthur, Earl of Gloucester (b.1197: d.1269) m. Isabelle FitzAlan (b.1200: d.1225) (a), Elizabeth of Brandenburg (b.1207: d.1242) (b)
1a) Margaret of Gloucester (b.1222: d.1222)

2b) Matilda of Gloucester (b.1233: d.1233)

8a) Stillborn Boy (c.1199)

9a) Eleanor of England (b.1203) m. Hugh X of Lusignan (b.1195: d.1249) (a)
1a) Hugh XI of Lusignan (b.1223: d.1240) m. Marie of Bourbon (b.1220: d.1274) (a)
1a) Hugh X of Lusignan (b.1241)
2a) William de Lusignan, Bishop of Winchester (b.1224)

3a) Agnes de Lusignan (b.1228: d.1230)

4a) Guy of Lusignan (b.1231: d.1241)
10a) Miscarriage (c.1206)
 
I think the best marriage for Eleanor of Brittany would be either her cousin Theobald of Blois, Peter II the Catholic of Aragon or Alfonso IX of Leon, the choices of marriages either distances her or her children can be declared as illegitemate due to consanguinity even if Arthur dies, I think that is for Richard to decide.

For Arthur, I think he should be given the County of Anjou.
 
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Why were they forbidden from having sexual relations? Was she his sister or something? :p

Henry IV had a similar situation with Mary de Bohun, so basically, having French support and remain in the French court before his reign like what Henry IV did would benefit John.
 
The Descendants of John I of England and Isabella of Gloucester

Henry III of England (b.1190: d.1235) m. Isabella of Angouleme (b.1188: d.1246) (a)
1a) Richard II of England (b.1207: d.1270) m. Sophie of Jülich (b.1209: d.1258) (a)
1a) Eleanor of England (b.1230) m. Raymond VII, Count of Toulouse (b.1197: d.1249) (a)
1a) William V, Count of Toulouse (b.1248)
2a) Henry of England (b.1232: d.1234)

3a) Richard of England (b.1233: d.1237)

4a) John II of England (b.1238: d.1277) m. Agnes of Burgundy (b.1247: d.1270) (a)
1a) John IV of England (b.1264)

2a) William, Duke of Clarence (b.1266)

3a) Margaret of England (b.1267: d.1267)

4a) Richard, Duke of York (b.1299:.1299)
5a) Alice of England (b.1243: d.1243)

6a) Geoffrey of England (b.1244: d.1244)
2a) William of England (b.1210) - Bishop

3a) Joan of England (b.1211: d.1258) m. William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke (b.1190: d.1231) (a), Simon de Montfort, 6th Earl of Leicester (b.1208: d.1265) b)
1a) Edward Marshal, Earl of Pembroke (b.1229: d.1300) m. Joan of Dampierre (b.1228: d.1246) (a), Isabelle of Bar (b.1235: d.1320) (b)
1a) Miscarriage (c.1243)

2b) George Marshal, Earl of Pembroke (b.1260)

3b) William Marshal (b.1266: d.1270)
2a) Matthew Marshal (b.1230: d.1233)

3a) Robert Marshal (b.1231: d.1232)

4b) Henry de Montfort, Earl of Leicester (b.1239: d.1305) m. Matilda FitzAndrew (b.1240: d.1255) (a), Catherine FitzGeoffrey de Mandeville, Countess of Essex (b.1228) (b)
1a) Lionel de Montfort, Duke of Leicester (b.1254)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1255)

3b) Maud de Montfort (b.1260)

4b) Alexander de Montfort, Earl of Essex (b.1263)

5b) Helen de Montfort (b.1270)
5b) Eleanor de Montfort (b.1242: d.1300) m. Humphrey de Bohun (b.1240: d.1265)
1a) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford (b.1260)

2a) John de Bohun (b.1261)

3a) Agnes de Bohun (b.1262)

4a) Raoul de Bohun (b.1263)

5a) Henry de Bohun (b.1264)

6a) William de Bohun (b.1265)

7a) Sybille de Bohun (b.1266)
4a) John of England (b.1214: d.1220)

5a) Alice of England (b.1219: d.1280) m. Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1194: d.1250) (a)
1a) Jordan of Hohenstaufen (b.1240: d.1240)

2a) Henry Otto of Hohenstaufen, King of Jerusalem, King of Sicily, Duke of Swabia (b.1244: d.1299)

3a) Margaret of Hohenstaufen (b.1245: d.1262) m. Albert II, Margrave of Meissen (b.1240: d.1314) (a)
1a) Agnes of Wettin (b.1258)

2a) Frederick of Wettin, Margrave of Meissen (b.1261)
4a) Miscarriage (c.1250)
6a) Miscarriage (c.1222)

2a) William of Gloucester, Duke of Aquitaine (b.1191) m. Blanche of Castile (b.1188: d.1252) (a)
1a) Eleanor of Aquitaine (b.1210: d.1239) m. James I of Aragon (b.1208: d.1276) (a)
1a) Catherine of Aragon (b.1235)

2a) James II of Aragon (b.1238) m. Catherine of Habsburg (b.1256: d.1282) (a)
1a) James III of Aragon (b.1270)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1271)

3a) Stillborn Boy (c.1274)

4a) Constance of Aragon (b.1278: d.1279)
2a) Marie of Aquitaine (b.1211: d.1300)

3a) Richard, Duke of Aquitaine (b.1215: d.1245) m. Violant of Hungary (b.1215: d.1251) (a)
1a) Yolande of Aquitaine (b.1237: d.1289) m. Rudold of Habsburg (b.1218: d.1291) (a)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1239)

3a) Andrew, Duke of Aquitaine (b.1244: d.1269) m. Margaret of Luxemburg (b.1255: d.1300)
1a) Henry, Duke of Aquitaine (b.1268: d.1270)

2a) Miles, Duke of Aquitaine (b.1268)
3a) Richard of Gloucester (b.1192: d.1250) m. Joanna I of Burgundy (b.1191: d.1210) (a)
1a) Margaret Plantagenet (b.1205: d.1224)

2a) Otto II of Burgundy (b.1208:d.1255) m. Berengaria of Castile (b.1228: d.1289) (a)
1a) Agnes of Burgundy (b.1247: d.1270) m. John II of England (b.1238: d.1277) (a)
1a) John IV of England (b.1264)

2a) William, Duke of Clarence (b.1266)

3a) Margaret of England (b.1267: d.1267)

4a) Richard, Duke of York (b.1299:.1299)
2a) Anne of Burgundy (b.1250: d.1312) m. John II, Count of Holland (b.1247: d.1304) (a)
1a) Adelaide of Avesnes (b.1260)

2a) Alix of Avesnes (b.1262)

3a) Otto, Count of Holland (b.1263)

4a) Stillborn Boy (c.1264)

5a) Elizabeth of Avesnes (b.1266)

6a) John of Avesnes (b.1267)

7a) Miles of Avesnes (b.1268: d.1270)

8a) Margaret of Avesnes (b.1270)

9a) Miscarriage (c.1273)
3a) Otto III of Burgundy (b.1252: d.1309) m. Beatrice of Savoy (b.1274:d.1330) (a)
1a) Edgar of Burgundy (b.1290: d.1290)

2a) Eleanor of Burgundy (b.1292)

3a) Otto IV of Burgundy (b.1295)

4a) Agnes of Burgundy (b.1296)

5a) William of Burgundy (b.1297)

6a) John of Burgundy (b.1300)
4a) Frederick of Burgundy (b.1256) m. Renee FitzAndrew (b.1259: d.1270) (a), Marie of Brabant (b.1278: d.1338) (b)
1a) Leopold of Burgundy (b.1267)

4a) Miscarriage (c.1193)

5a) Matilda of Gloucester (b.1194: d.1270) m. Louis VIII of France (b.1187: d.1248) (a)
1a) Blanche of France (b.1209) m. Matthias, Duke of Lorraine (b.1193: d.1251) (a)
1a) Isabella of Lorraine (b.1239: d.1300)

2a) Frederick, Duke of Lorraine (b.1244) m. Catherine of Nassau (c.1240/50: d.1323) (a)
1a) Mary of Lorraine (b.1270: d.1287)
3a) Adelaide of Lorraine (b.1244: d.1299) m. Louis I of Vaud (b.1250: d.1302) (a)
1a) Bernard, Duke of Lorraine (b.1277)

2a) Jaqueline of Vaud (b.1280)
2a) Philip, Dauphin of France (b.1210: d.1244) m. Catherine of Luxembourg (b.1215: d.1255)
1a) Alys of France (b.1234: d.1238)

2a) Louis IX of France (b.1235)

3a) Magdalena of France (b.1236) m. Theobald II of Navarre (b.1239: d.1270) (a)
1a) Bonne of Navarre (b.1256)

2a) Louis of Navarre (b.1259: d.1269)

3a) Theobald III of Navarre (b.1264)
4a) Stillborn Boy (c.1238)

5a) James of France, Count of Artois (b.1240: d.1300) p. Unknown Woman (a)
1a) Louis de Artois (b.1289)
6a) Miscarriage (c.1243)
3a) John of France, Count of Artois (b.1212: d.1223)

4a) Louis of France, Count of Poitou and Auvergne (b.1214: d.1240)

5a) Isabelle of France (b.1215) - Abbess

6a) Robert of France (b.1218: d.1219)

7a) Magdalena of France (b.1224: d.1289) John I of Dreux (b.1215: d.1249) (a)
6a) Geoffrey of Gloucester (b.1196: d.1196)

7a) Arthur, Earl of Gloucester (b.1197: d.1269) m. Isabelle FitzAlan (b.1200: d.1225) (a), Elizabeth of Brandenburg (b.1207: d.1242) (b)
1a) Margaret of Gloucester (b.1222: d.1222)

2b) Matilda of Gloucester (b.1233: d.1233)

8a) Stillborn Boy (c.1199)

9a) Eleanor of England (b.1203) m. Hugh X of Lusignan (b.1195: d.1249) (a)
1a) Hugh XI of Lusignan (b.1223: d.1240) m. Marie of Bourbon (b.1220: d.1274) (a)
1a) Hugh X of Lusignan (b.1241) m. Marie of Bourbon (c.1250: d.1312) (a)
1a) Hugh XI of Lusignan (b.1269)

2a) Margaret of Lusignan (b.1272)

3a) Beatrice of Lusignan (b.1272)
2a) William de Lusignan, Bishop of Winchester (b.1224)

3a) Agnes de Lusignan (b.1228: d.1230)

4a) Guy of Lusignan (b.1231: d.1241)

10a) Miscarriage (c.1206)
 
The Problem with King John is that he killed off all the legitimate Plantagenets descended from his brothers and the other male members of legitimate branches of Plantagenets aside from him in his reign, Thomas Du Perche a minor line of Plantagenet died as well.

Thomas Du Perche and Eleanor of Brittany were both the remaining Plantagenets after John killed Arthur, both died in captivity.
 
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