WI: Isabella Capet Queen of England was born male

To clarify the Isabella Capet being refered to is the daughter of Phillip "The Fair" IV Capet, Wife to Edward II Plantagenet, and mother to Edward III Plantagenet.

Isabella was central to the uncovering of the Nesle Affair, Led a successful rebellion against her husband, reigned alongside her lover Roger Mortimer as regent for her son, and was all in all considered one of the most formidable female leaders of the time.

It is by claiming descent through Isabella that Edward III of England laid claim to France and to a large degree through her actions that the groundwork for the Hundred Years' War was laid.

So my question is this: What If Isabella Capet was born as the fourth son of Phillip IV rather than as his daughter?

Building on the assumption that Isabella has many of the same attributes that the female version had, how would she have acted?

Who would Edward II marry? Who would male-Isabella marry? What ramifications might these alternate marriages have?

Would something equivolent to the Nesle Affair happen?

How great of a possibility would there be for male-Isabella to become king?
 
To clarify the Isabella Capet being refered to is the daughter of Phillip "The Fair" IV Capet, Wife to Edward II Plantagenet, and mother to Edward III Plantagenet.

Isabella was central to the uncovering of the Nesle Affair, Led a successful rebellion against her husband, reigned alongside her lover Roger Mortimer as regent for her son, and was all in all considered one of the most formidable female leaders of the time.

It is by claiming descent through Isabella that Edward III of England laid claim to France and to a large degree through her actions that the groundwork for the Hundred Years' War was laid.

So my question is this: What If Isabella Capet was born as the fourth son of Phillip IV rather than as his daughter?

Building on the assumption that Isabella has many of the same attributes that the female version had, how would she have acted?

Who would Edward II marry? Who would male-Isabella marry? What ramifications might these alternate marriages have?

Would something equivolent to the Nesle Affair happen?

How great of a possibility would there be for male-Isabella to become king?
This depends exactly on her/his relations with the other princes, especially Philippe (le Long) which is the most efficient of the 3. I think you butterflied away for France the worst of the HYW though.
 
Zulfurium said:
So my question is this: What If Isabella Capet was born as the fourth son of Phillip IV rather than as his daughter?
A male Isabella would technically be the thirdborn son. Isabella was born in 1292, two years before OTL Charles IV of France.

Which ironically means that male Isabella could be baptised Charles while OTL Charles IV would probably be called Robert (the name of an OTL fourth son of Philippe IV that didn't reach adulthood)
Zulfurium said:
Who would Edward II marry? Who would male-Isabella marry? What ramifications might these alternate marriages have?
Considering when male Isabella/ATL Charles IV would be born, I'd say it's likely he would end up with the bride of OTL Charles IV: Blanche of Burgundy.
Zulfurium said:
How great of a possibility would there be for male-Isabella to become king?
If history is kept on course, male Isabella/ATL Charles IV would be King of France by 1322 and the death of Philip V.

Otherwise, male Isabella/ATL Charles is still the thirdborn son of Philip the Fair. His accession to the throne is dependant on a lack of male children on his elder brothers. That's of course assuming we end up in the same situation that led to the exclusion of women to the French throne. If not, the situation becomes a bit more complicated.
 
About this, what if Isabella stays female but marries into French Nobility instead of the English heir? Was it a possibility at some point before she married Edward?

Will women still be excluded from the succession if there is a surviving French princess not linked to foreign interest like she would be? (maybe she'd come after her younger brother Charles, but still be able to inherit if he dies childless)
 
A male Isabella would technically be the thirdborn son. Isabella was born in 1292, two years before OTL Charles IV of France.

Which ironically means that male Isabella could be baptised Charles while OTL Charles IV would probably be called Robert (the name of an OTL fourth son of Philippe IV that didn't reach adulthood)
Considering when male Isabella/ATL Charles IV would be born, I'd say it's likely he would end up with the bride of OTL Charles IV: Blanche of Burgundy.
If history is kept on course, male Isabella/ATL Charles IV would be King of France by 1322 and the death of Philip V.

Otherwise, male Isabella/ATL Charles is still the thirdborn son of Philip the Fair. His accession to the throne is dependant on a lack of male children on his elder brothers. That's of course assuming we end up in the same situation that led to the exclusion of women to the French throne. If not, the situation becomes a bit more complicated.

Wait, she was born in 1292? I thought she was born in 1295, after OTL Charles IV...
 
MiniaAr said:
About this, what if Isabella stays female but marries into French Nobility instead of the English heir? Was it a possibility at some point before she married Edward?
Probably, but it would have been a lot less prestigious. Plus, France and England had a tendency to arrange marriage to secure peace between them, which was the case of Isabella and Edward II's bethroal and eventual marriage. As a matter of fact, according to the same treaty that arranged Edward II's future mariage to Isabella, Edward I remarried to Philippe IV's sister Marguerite (by whom he had two sons BTW). It's also not the first time Plantagenêts and Capetians intermarry:

  • Blanche of Castille, wife of Louis VIII and mother of Saint Louis IX, was a daughter of Alphonso VIII and Eleanor of England. Her maternal grandparents were Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine. She was John Lackland's niece.
  • Louis IX and Henry III both married daughters of Ramon Berenguer IV of Provence. Louis IX married the eldest daughter, Marguerite, while Henry III wedded the second daughter, Eleanor. That bloodlink wasn't really arranged though, but it had an impact as the sisters got along very well.
MiniaAr said:
Will women still be excluded from the succession if there is a surviving French princess not linked to foreign interest like she would be? (maybe she'd come after her younger brother Charles, but still be able to inherit if he dies childless)
Their exclusion was decided de facto in 1322 when Louis X's daughter Joan of Navarra was not recognised as Queen of France after the death of John I the Posthumous, thus when Philippe V ascended the throne. The decision to exclude men who were related to previous Kings from women only came in 1328 though...

ATA88 said:
Wait, she was born in 1292? I thought she was born in 1295, after OTL Charles IV...
Damn wikipedia for not being coherent between articles... I used it as a quick check to Isabella's birth date which is listed as 1292 on Philippe IV's page on French Wikipedia. The problem is that it's not the date they mention on Isabella's own page... :rolleyes:

For the record, Isabella's birthdate is a bit uncertain. The Annals of Wigmore mention that Isabella was 7 in 1299, which would mean she was born in 1292. However, historians do not favor that hypothesis. They base themselves on the fact Pope Clement V granted her a dispensation in November 1305 so she could marry Edward II by proxy despite being around 10. She had to be seven before her betrothal in May 1303 and twelve before her marriage in January 1308. That means Isabella was most likely born between May and November 1295.

Sorry for the mess guys.
 
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