WI : Isaac Angelos never became Basileus in 1185 ?

Hello everyone !
In 1185 Byzantium was in pretty catastrophic situation. Norman sicilians had invaded the empire and sacked Thessalonica, and mostly though that Constantinople would be the next target of William II. It was in that atmosphere of fear and panic that Skleros Seth, a court shootsayer, made the prophecy that the successor of Andronic would start with an "I". In result the minion of Andronic, Hagiochristophoros, failed to kill Isaac Ange who was elevated as the new Basileus by the people of Constantinople.

However the needs for a timeline i prepare i have two questions :
- (minor POD) What if Hagiochristophoros succeed and killed Ange ? Byzantium could avoid the shameful 4th Crusade and survive ?
- (major POD) What if Seth designated not Ange but Irène, the Andronic's illegitimate daughter he had with Theodora Comnenos ? Did she have a chance to deposed her father and be crowned as Basilissa of Rhomania and be like Eirene the first ?

Thx for all the help you can provide. And sorry for my bad english :D
 
It isnt isaac you need to get rid of but the future Alexius III and IVs.

Also just have him not act like a dick to the asen brothers when they ask for some plot of land to raise money to pay for his men thereby butterflying away the revolt. Oh and have Branas somehow stay loyal to Isaac and the empire will be just fine. Cause you see Isaac was an average emperor and so it would totter on and provided he is succeeded by someone competant Byzantium could remain a great power.

As for 4th crusade that could be butterflied away. It wasnt inevitable tilll Alex III took the throne.
 
It's an interesting period. I'm currently working on a TL where Isaac gets his five minutes of fame, but fails to defeat the Normans...but that's a different topic.
However the needs for a timeline i prepare i have two questions :
- (minor POD) What if Hagiochristophoros succeed and killed Ange ? Byzantium could avoid the shameful 4th Crusade and survive ?

They could avoid it. Andronikos was a bit of a tyrant, but he had some good ideas, and he tried to get close to Venice. Venice was responsible for the catastrophe of the 4th Crusade so having an Emperor who is on their good side would be pretty important.
- (major POD) What if Seth designated not Ange but Irène, the Andronic's illegitimate daughter he had with Theodora Comnenos ? Did she have a chance to deposed her father and be crowned as Basilissa of Rhomania and be like Eirene the first ?

Irene wouldn't be in a very good position to depose anyone - her husband was imprisoned and blinded, so she isn't very close to Andronikos. And because she's his (illegitimate) daughter, she wouldn't be very popular with the opposition, either.

Seth didn't himself designate any names; he produced an "IS", and Andronikos decided to kill Isaac Angelos just to be sure.
 
Irene wouldn't be in a very good position to depose anyone - her husband was imprisoned and blinded, so she isn't very close to Andronikos. And because she's his (illegitimate) daughter, she wouldn't be very popular with the opposition, either.

Thanks for the information about Irene's husband (i haven't found informations about him).
 
Irene wouldn't be in a very good position to depose anyone - her husband was imprisoned and blinded, so she isn't very close to Andronikos. And because she's his (illegitimate) daughter, she wouldn't be very popular with the opposition, either.

I dunno if the comparison is great but why Irene couldn't be the Rhomania equivalent of Isabella of Castile ? I agree that Isabella wasn't an illegitimate child but she was in pretty bad situation before she's summoned to Segovia castle by her half-brother and it wasn't better when she made her "Coup d'Etat" against her niece.

PS : i'm very interesting about your TL Halagaz. Stop teasing people please ;)
 
I dunno if the comparison is great but why Irene couldn't be the Rhomania equivalent of Isabella of Castile ? I agree that Isabella wasn't an illegitimate child but she was in pretty bad situation before she's summoned to Segovia castle by her half-brother and it wasn't better when she made her "Coup d'Etat" against her niece.

Well, she could be...I just don't think it's very likely. If an equivalent to Isabella is needed, why not Andronik's legitimate daughter Maria?
PS : i'm very interesting about your TL Halagaz. Stop teasing people please ;)

It's not teasing, it's laziness. :p I honestly have no idea when I'll be able to start posting it. The basics are simple enough, William II cleverly exploits a civil war between Isaac and Andronikos and imposes himself as the new Emperor...after that things get a bit uncertain.
 
Well, she could be...I just don't think it's very likely. If an equivalent to Isabella is needed, why not Andronik's legitimate daughter Maria?

I'm being seriously considered it. Maria is indeed a good choice but i haven't got informations about her (bithdate, husband, etc). If you have some youre welcome
 
I'm being seriously considered it. Maria is indeed a good choice but i haven't got informations about her (bithdate, husband, etc). If you have some youre welcome

She was probably around 30 years old in 1185.

IMO the main reasons why Maria would be a better choice is that
1) She's legitimate
2) It's known she was clever and resourceful: she managed to run away from Constantinople in 1181 and bring valuable information to her father.
3) It isn't known whether she was even married at the time; but that still puts her at an advantage over Irene, because Maria could marry some competent general or powerful aristocrat and later take the crown with his help. While Irene's husband is blind and in prison.

So with the right husband, I think she could gain an upper hand in a struggle for her crown. Especially if her brother Manuel dies before that struggle. Of course it's your TL and your choice where it goes.
 
She was probably around 30 years old in 1185.

IMO the main reasons why Maria would be a better choice is that
1) She's legitimate
2) It's known she was clever and resourceful: she managed to run away from Constantinople in 1181 and bring valuable information to her father.
3) It isn't known whether she was even married at the time; but that still puts her at an advantage over Irene, because Maria could marry some competent general or powerful aristocrat and later take the crown with his help. While Irene's husband is blind and in prison.

So with the right husband, I think she could gain an upper hand in a struggle for her crown. Especially if her brother Manuel dies before that struggle. Of course it's your TL and your choice where it goes.

As you said it's my TL but only fool don't change their mind. Especially with so good arguments. Accepted :D
But because i'm a little noob of the microcosmos which reign in the Blacherne's palace (actually i'm trying to understand the fiscal system of Komnenos's Rhomania ^^) did you have a certain general in your mind ? I thought Branas could be a good choice but he was already married
 
As you said it's my TL but only fool don't change their mind. Especially with so good arguments. Accepted :D
But because i'm a little noob of the microcosmos which reign in the Blacherne's palace (actually i'm trying to understand the fiscal system of Komnenos's Rhomania ^^) did you have a certain general in your mind ? I thought Branas could be a good choice but he was already married

The fiscal system keeps confusing me too...

As for the generals, not sure. Maybe Constantine Aspietes, or Theodore Choumnos. There are probably other good choices as well.
 
The fiscal system keeps confusing me too...

As for the generals, not sure. Maybe Constantine Aspietes, or Theodore Choumnos. There are probably other good choices as well.

I note i note. Personally i have found Basil Vatatzes and Andronikos Palaiologos
 
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