WI: Irish Treaty Ports remained in British control during WWII

After Irish independence Britain retained control of three treaty ports - Lough Swilly in Donegal, Berehaven in South West Cork and Spike Island in Cork Harbour. These were returned to Ireland in 1938.

If they had not returned to Irish control and had been available for use by Britain during WWII would this have had a material affect on the outcome of the Battle of the Atlantic?

On the other hand what would the german response be? There would certainly be air raids on the ports but would the Germans consider the presence of ritish bases on Irish soil (regadless of the terms of independence) a flagrant breach of Irish neutrality?

How would Anglo Irish relations during WWII be affected. They could be fractions at times but the Irish government did have a pro allied bias.
 
After Irish independence Britain retained control of three treaty ports - Lough Swilly in Donegal, Berehaven in South West Cork and Spike Island in Cork Harbour. These were returned to Ireland in 1938.

If they had not returned to Irish control and had been available for use by Britain during WWII would this have had a material affect on the outcome of the Battle of the Atlantic?

On the other hand what would the german response be? There would certainly be air raids on the ports but would the Germans consider the presence of ritish bases on Irish soil (regadless of the terms of independence) a flagrant breach of Irish neutrality?

How would Anglo Irish relations during WWII be affected. They could be fractions at times but the Irish government did have a pro allied bias.

I suppose the convoys would have been able to use Lough Swilly to muster and the others for the escorts, I don't think that basing the Sunderlands out of Swilly would add much, flying out of Cobh or Castletownbere would add a range of coverage I guess.

The great problem is defending Cork harbour and Castletownbere from air attack, neither would have the land for an airfield, and I doubt AA guns alone would be enough. It would need Irish government support to change this, which is a big ask at this point, if Germany starts bombing areas that might change.

Outside of Gibraltar I can't think of another situation where a neutral nation would have a major base like this. So I have no idea about what Germany might think about the Irish.

Another question is how would the Irish government deal with the options for employment that this might represent? It might be a problem if you have ships in Cork that need work and the Government is stopping the Irish companies from being involved, (it's one thing to be neutral, it might be another to be out of a job while there's work floating in the harbour before you)
 
I suppose the convoys would have been able to use Lough Swilly to muster and the others for the escorts, I don't think that basing the Sunderlands out of Swilly would add much, flying out of Cobh or Castletownbere would add a range of coverage I guess.

The great problem is defending Cork harbour and Castletownbere from air attack, neither would have the land for an airfield, and I doubt AA guns alone would be enough. It would need Irish government support to change this, which is a big ask at this point, if Germany starts bombing areas that might change.

Outside of Gibraltar I can't think of another situation where a neutral nation would have a major base like this. So I have no idea about what Germany might think about the Irish.

Another question is how would the Irish government deal with the options for employment that this might represent? It might be a problem if you have ships in Cork that need work and the Government is stopping the Irish companies from being involved, (it's one thing to be neutral, it might be another to be out of a job while there's work floating in the harbour before you)

I wonder how useable the ports really were. Lough Swilly looks like a nice harbour and is defendabe by RAF fighters based in Northern Ireland. Berehaven and Spike are a major problem vis a vis air defence.

The Irish government can't offer further land for British bases and remain ostensibly neutral. I wonder if the Germans my take the attitude that the mere presence of the ports cancels Irish neutrality.

Dublin and Cork could get the Belfast treatment more Irish ships will be torpedoed than was the case. Case Green will get a couple of microseconds more attention:D
 
I imagine Dev would do everything within his power to make things uncomfortable for the British, enough to make them give up the Treaty Ports.
 
I imagine Dev would do everything within his power to make things uncomfortable for the British, enough to make them give up the Treaty Ports.

If he's running the joint, why are the Treat Points even made available?

This could be interesting to explore in the context of a "Collins lives" TL.
 
I imagine Dev would do everything within his power to make things uncomfortable for the British, enough to make them give up the Treaty Ports.

Perhaps if the British were willing to make him a better offer (perhaps helping improve the local infrastructure, or investment in the Irish economy), or were willing to refuse the Irish in the talks in 38, there wouldn't have been much that he could do about it.

From some local talks the RN had a fairly good relationship in Cobh, and the CO of the Irish marine and coastal watching service was a former British officer that served in Jutland so they might have been able to work together.
 
If he's running the joint, why are the Treat Points even made available?

This could be interesting to explore in the context of a "Collins lives" TL.

I was thinking of a scenario where the Treaty Ports don't return to ireland in 1938. That might need the trade war not taking place or being settled some other way.

Collin lives in an interesting idea.
 
I wonder how useable the ports really were. Lough Swilly looks like a nice harbour and is defendabe by RAF fighters based in Northern Ireland. Berehaven and Spike are a major problem vis a vis air defence.

The Irish government can't offer further land for British bases and remain ostensibly neutral. I wonder if the Germans my take the attitude that the mere presence of the ports cancels Irish neutrality.

Dublin and Cork could get the Belfast treatment more Irish ships will be torpedoed than was the case. Case Green will get a couple of microseconds more attention:D

At the end of the day wasn't that why the RN didn't fight over the ports, that they accepted that without more space they couldn't defend it from air attack. Cork would have had the Torpedo nets for the harbour as well.

Certainly the Irish couldn't have given anymore space to the British and remained neutral, though wasn't the old barracks area at Little Island slapped up fairly quickly during this period, if the ports remained in use, would the Irish government invest in an airfield and some more Gladiators, (the RN might be happy to surplus some aircraft).

If Ireland does get some full up bombing attacks I can't see the idea of neutrality lasting very long after that
 
I was thinking of a scenario where the Treaty Ports don't return to ireland in 1938. That might need the trade war not taking place or being settled some other way.

Collin lives in an interesting idea.

Perhaps the suggestion that the ports are going to be returned creates more of a backbench rebellion for Chamberlain and he has to argue to keep them, after all Dev and Ireland weren't in a position to force the UK to give them up.

Collins living creates a lot of butterflies that could affect this, but would I think go beyond the relatively simple question of the ports
 
The Treaty Ports being granted were pretty big concessions when you thought about how the Anglo-Irish Trade War went, Britain had a small effect on its economy while Ireland's went to the crapper. Have Britain keep the trade war going (Ireland isn't going to risk neutrality) and the ports are still British.
 
The Treaty Ports being granted were pretty big concessions when you thought about how the Anglo-Irish Trade War went, Britain had a small effect on its economy while Ireland's went to the crapper. Have Britain keep the trade war going (Ireland isn't going to risk neutrality) and the ports are still British.

That's a thought. I would imagine the trade war would end at or shortly after the outbreak of WWII but whatever happens then the ports are in UK hands for the duration at least. But as Sparky points out there are big disadvantages in terms of air cover which means that they may not be as useful as hoped well not the two ports in Cork
 
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At the end of the day wasn't that why the RN didn't fight over the ports, that they accepted that without more space they couldn't defend it from air attack. Cork would have had the Torpedo nets for the harbour as well.

Certainly the Irish couldn't have given anymore space to the British and remained neutral, though wasn't the old barracks area at Little Island slapped up fairly quickly during this period, if the ports remained in use, would the Irish government invest in an airfield and some more Gladiators, (the RN might be happy to surplus some aircraft).

If Ireland does get some full up bombing attacks I can't see the idea of neutrality lasting very long after that

They don't become very practical without air cover the Cork ports that is. If The Army Air Corps were beefed up with more Gladiators They wouldn't be getting Hurricanes for a while, not early in the war and an airfield was built near Cork then they would not protect the ports but protect Irish territory. .

Now there's merry pickle. If luftwaffe attacks Spike Island, it's a racing bet that Haulbowline Ringaskiddy Cork, Whitegate, Crosshaven and probably Cork are going to get hit. But where does the line between stand between not defending Spike but defending Haulbowline et al.
 
They don't become very practical without air cover the Cork ports that is. If The Army Air Corps were beefed up with more Gladiators They wouldn't be getting Hurricanes for a while, not early in the war and an airfield was built near Cork then they would not protect the ports but protect Irish territory. .

Now there's merry pickle. If luftwaffe attacks Spike Island, it's a racing bet that Haulbowline Ringaskiddy Cork, Whitegate, Crosshaven and probably Cork are going to get hit. But where does the line between stand between not defending Spike but defending Haulbowline et al.

It could certainly be argued that any air corps unit was defending Irish territory and citizens, even without the Steel slag heap Haulbowline is still a short throw from Spike and Cobh isn't much more (imagine the image if Cobh Cathedral got hit), it's what less than a mile, how accurate would the German bombers be? Given any cloud cover wouldn't it be easy to get at least the two smaller islands mixed up, especially taking AA fire and perhaps a few fighters trying to make a issue for themselves, particularly as Haulbowline is clearly the more naval base than Spike.

It might depend on what the Irish could get from the UK, if the ports were in use might the Irish and the RN try and twist the arms to get a few Hurricanes, even a half a dozen would let Dev point to the Air Corps
 
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It could certainly be argued that any air corps unit was defending Irish territory and citizens, even without the Steel slag heap Haulbowline is still a short throw from Spike and Cobh isn't much more (imagine the image if Cobh Cathedral got hit), it's what less than a mile, how accurate would the German bombers be? Given any cloud cover wouldn't it be easy to get at least the two smaller islands mixed up, especially taking AA fire and perhaps a few fighters trying to make a issue for themselves.

It might depend on what the Irish could get from the UK, if the ports were in use might the Irish and the RN try and twist the arms to get a few Hurricanes, even a half a dozen would let Dev point to the Air Corps

I would say that St Colman's getting damaged is fairly likely. Cobh getting hit is a certainty. Cork getting hit in a fair bet too. Luftwaffe bombing is

De Valera isn't going to prize the ports out of British hands in wartime even if they are not as useful as they could be. I daresau that after German bombs land on Cobh an expanded Air Corps shoots down a couple of bombers the situation will escalate. Irish ships will be deliberate targets for U Boats and so on until Ireland is effectively at war with Germany.
 
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