WI: Irish Forced to Convert to Anglicanism

Similarly in communist poland where the Russians and communists attempted to suppress the church and religion and instead in an act of defiance the polish people held on the thief millennium faith.

Yes exactly, besides the one fact that Catholicism in Ireland is arguably quite stronger than even in Poland historically. Modern support of same-sex marriage has nothing to do with it.

But great point. I agree.
 

kernals12

Banned
A Protestant Ireland means big cultural impacts overseas. 10.5% of Americans are ethnically Irish, here in Massachusetts, it's 22.5%. America's catholic population becomes a lot smaller, and that butterflies away a lot, notably conservative views on abortion and contraception.
 
That was not the British wAy and would of required a huge expense and manpower to accomplish. Also in continental Europe people could walk away to another friendlier country or region. But what you do in Ireland when Britain controlled the ports and people not have $ to move? They would of been hArd pressed to contain revolts.

The lack of a refuge in walking distance will absolutely make the Irish resistance harder driving up the cost in British manpower and gold. Another reason why it didn't happen in OTL, but if you had an English Monarchy strong enough and determined enough that isn't necessarily an insurmountable obstacle. Remember the Flight of the Earls and the Wild Geese was with the cooperation of the Dublin administration, the Earls and the Wild Geese wanted out and the English wanted them out. Doing that on a larger scale, i.e. offering conversion, death or passage to France/Spain would strike me as a likely option that a determined English administration might take.

They kind of tried IOTL with the penal laws. About the only thing more they could do would be to start executing anybody who doesn't convert, which in turn would probably require a big and bloody Catholic rebellion resulting in an equally big and bloody government attempt to stamp out papism in the island once and for all. (They could theoretically try during peacetime, of course, but even in the 17th century killing defenceless civilians during times of peace tended to be frowned upon.)

No they didn't actually. If you compare the behaviour of the English and later British in Ireland and the Hapsburgs in Flanders and Bohemia or various German Princes after the Thirty Years War the lack of interest in conversion is notable. The Penal Laws were structured to maintain the Protestant monopoly of on power and keep the Irish as a poor labour force to available to cheaply work on the Ascendancy Estates. In contrast in Europe the first stage was the same as Ireland, the dispossession and elimination or exile of the native aristocracy and it's replacement with a new class of outsiders and opportunists (Bohemia is a good example of this) but then you saw the Crown, Church and new Landowners work in concert to enforce conversion of the remaining population. That simply didn't happen in Ireland, the Crown did have the money or the will, the Church of Ireland was a sinecure for Englishmen who frequently stayed in England and the landowners wanted quiescent workers, they didn't want to be hanging their labour force and reducing their income.

Catholicism is the faith of the Irish nation, at least in tradition (I am not bringing the 21st century in this; this is purely on historical grounds.) The more the British oppressed the Irish, the more they held on to their already very strong faith. Irish catholic tradition goes back millennium; it was strong even before British oppression. The economic oppression, such as with the absentee landlords, was incredibly immense. The Irish resisted this largely through clinging on to their culture; the only remnant left after the British takeover of the whole island. To convert to the Protestant faith to them would be to lose their Irish sensibilities and turn back on their family; their community; their people. The local pressure was immense. The Ulster Protestants would also not convert to Catholicism even if under Irish Catholic rule. The whole tragedy is full of sensitivities and many on both sides are bitter to this day.

Elizabeth tried, the Stuarts tried, Cromwell tried. Maybe you really do need a mighty ASB to convert Ireland to Anglicanism :biggrin:

The idea that the Catholic Irish are innately more attached to their faith than other people is rubbish, the Flemish were very attached to Calvinism but Alba, the 80 Years War and an ocean of blood changed that. If England had done to Ireland what Alba did to Flanders e.g. upon capturing a town execute all the defenders and leading citizens* and then force the survivors to publically submit to the Church, hanging those who didn't, I suspect Ireland would have as many Catholics as Flanders has Protestants today (1.4%).

*something Cromwell did twice, Alba did it to every town he took
**something Cromwell nor his predecessors and successors never did
 
The idea that the Catholic Irish are innately more attached to their faith than other people is rubbish

Nothing inherent (especially not genetic) but the very strong catholic tradition in Ireland is hugely important to the discussion at hand. During th day of Charlemagne Irish monks were a big part of spreading th faith in his realm. At least in sustainance.
 
Nothing inherent (especially not genetic) but the very strong catholic tradition in Ireland is hugely important to the discussion at hand. During th day of Charlemagne Irish monks were a big part of spreading th faith in his realm. At least in sustainance.

Actually there wasn't a very strong Catholic tradition in Ireland at the time of the Reformation, while there was a strong Christian heritage dating back as you say to Patrick and Columbanus but it was Celtic Christianity, which post the Gregorian Reformation was viewed increasingly unfavourably in Rome, which in turn led to the Papal blessing given to the Norman invasion of Ireland in the 12th century which saw Ireland bloodily aligned with Rome. So come of the Reformation it wouldn't be implausible to see Protestantism whose proponents felt they were reverted to an earlier "truer" version of Christianity be especially appealing to the Irish. Now in OTL of course that didn't happen, in large part because of the English but there you go.
 
The Penal Laws were structured to maintain the Protestant monopoly of on power and keep the Irish as a poor labour force to available to cheaply work on the Ascendancy Estates. In contrast in Europe the first stage was the same as Ireland, the dispossession and elimination or exile of the native aristocracy and it's replacement with a new class of outsiders and opportunists (Bohemia is a good example of this) but then you saw the Crown, Church and new Landowners work in concert to enforce conversion of the remaining population. That simply didn't happen in Ireland, the Crown did have the money or the will, the Church of Ireland was a sinecure for Englishmen who frequently stayed in England and the landowners wanted quiescent workers, they didn't want to be hanging their labour force and reducing their income.

This. Anglicanism was founded by a King who couldn't get a divorce. From the Anglican point of view, the problem with Catholics (and Presbyterians) was not so much that they were wrong theologically but unreliable politically. The rector of Kilskeery i 1704, Nicholas Browne, translated the Prayer Book into Irish, but he was very much the exception.

Ireland throughout C17 was pretty well wrecked, so much so that there was one proposal to depopulate it almost entirely and convert it into one gigantic cattle ranch. The church in Browne's parish had been destroyed at the time of Henry VIII, but a new one was not built until well into C18.

Ireland was a low investment/low return proposition, and the Ulster Plantation had great difficulty in attracting English tenants in particular. (The most successful specifically English settlement was in South Armagh.) Many were massacred in the 1640s, and I get the impression that their landlords had found that native tenants were less demanding.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Actually there wasn't a very strong Catholic tradition in Ireland at the time of the Reformation, while there was a strong Christian heritage dating back as you say to Patrick and Columbanus but it was Celtic Christianity, which post the Gregorian Reformation was viewed increasingly unfavourably in Rome, which in turn led to the Papal blessing given to the Norman invasion of Ireland in the 12th century which saw Ireland bloodily aligned with Rome. So come of the Reformation it wouldn't be implausible to see Protestantism whose proponents felt they were reverted to an earlier "truer" version of Christianity be especially appealing to the Irish. Now in OTL of course that didn't happen, in large part because of the English but there you go.
Yes it could happen if it was a true Irish movement but as long as the Irish felt politically oppressed by British and at same time were being told to convert by force it not worked without ability for an easy exodus from Ireland.

The other issue here is that you also had no religious cohesion back in England. There were a variety of protestant denominations back in England and Scotland including a substantial catholic minority. As far as some Protestant faiths were concerned Anglicanism was same as Catholicism just without the pope. So how can you have a country of various denominations force people to convert to only one of the denominations. I think presbyterians or other denominations would object. It could of cause great discord back home.
 
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A Protestant Ireland means big cultural impacts overseas. 10.5% of Americans are ethnically Irish, here in Massachusetts, it's 22.5%. America's catholic population becomes a lot smaller, and that butterflies away a lot, notably conservative views on abortion and contraception.

If you get a Protestant Ireland, the nature of immigration to the US is likely to be very different due to the impact of butterflies on the famine.
 

Lusitania

Donor
If you get a Protestant Ireland, the nature of immigration to the US is likely to be very different due to the impact of butterflies on the famine.
I wonder if a Protestant Ireland as ASB as it would seem would of changed anything. Would they be any more loyal to Britain? Would the Irish still be reliant on potatoes to feed their families? Family size would still be the same would it not? Protestants also had large families. Would attitudes in Britain chane towards the Irish? No it would not they still look down on them. The Irish Protestants at time and today were descendants of Scottish who migrated to Ireland not Irish who converted (although could of been few of those too).
 
The Irish Protestants at time and today were descendants of Scottish who migrated to Ireland not Irish who converted (although could of been few of those too).
Mainly but not entirely. Significant Huguenot settlement as well and there were some English and Welsh settlers. At its zenith, Ireland's Protestant population was around 28% of the island's total. Henry Ford's family for instance came from Cork, not from Northern Ireland.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Mainly but not entirely. Significant Huguenot settlement as well and there were some English and Welsh settlers. At its zenith, Ireland's Protestant population was around 28% of the island's total. Henry Ford's family for instance came from Cork, not from Northern Ireland.

Ok I stand corrected, but the fact that Irish protestants were immigrants.
 
Actually there wasn't a very strong Catholic tradition in Ireland at the time of the Reformation, while there was a strong Christian heritage dating back as you say to Patrick and Columbanus but it was Celtic Christianity, which post the Gregorian Reformation was viewed increasingly unfavourably in Rome, which in turn led to the Papal blessing given to the Norman invasion of Ireland in the 12th century which saw Ireland bloodily aligned with Rome. So come of the Reformation it wouldn't be implausible to see Protestantism whose proponents felt they were reverted to an earlier "truer" version of Christianity be especially appealing to the Irish. Now in OTL of course that didn't happen, in large part because of the English but there you go.

"Celtic Christianity" is a myth invented by 18th-century Romantic nationalists. There's no evidence that Irish Christians of the dark ages thought of themselves, or were thought by others, to be anything other than Catholics.
 
"Celtic Christianity" is a myth invented by 18th-century Romantic nationalists. There's no evidence that Irish Christians of the dark ages thought of themselves, or were thought by others, to be anything other than Catholics.
I would only agree up to a point. Certainly the Celtic Church saw itself as owing loyalty to and in communion with Rome. And no doubt the degree of separateness has been somewhat exaggerated by historians of either a protestant or chauvinistic bent. But such evidence as we have suggests that Rome regarded the pre conquest Irish church with at least a degree of suspicion in terms of its practice and doctrine. It may have been the only English pope who authorised the English conquest but his decision was quite uncontroversial in Rome.
 
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