WI: Inuit's in Northern Canada developed Pyrcrete in the 1200's?

[DValdron]

The other route of expansion would be across the Bering Strait, as they did, and then up along the Siberian Arctic coast, along the East Siberian and Laptev sea, through the Svernya Zemla archipelago, perhaps even eventually coming into contact with Inuit expansion the other way.

Just thinking out loud here.

I'm kind of tickled with the idea of an Empire of the North Pole, even though it seems unrealistic. Perhaps something like the Holy Roman Empire... a sort of loosely aligned collection of Inuit states/tribes ringing the arctic sea.

 

[Some Bloke]

Interesting scenario, even if you only work along the lines of Jared Diamond, you're still looking at what could prove to be a very influential culture.

Different building material, different practices, how far south will they spread? Might you have derivative/hybrid cultures further south building timber structures.

More sedentary culture, how will they exploit their environment?

So many questions.

Consider me subscribed.

 

[DValdron]

Southen Range

I think that the package works for the arctic and subarctic. South of the Sub-arctic, I don't think that the package would serve.

Even in the Sub-Arctic, I think that they'd face increasing resistance as they moved south. My assessment would be that they'd take a bite out of the subarctic, maybe a pretty big bite, but not necessarily all of it.

Going by the map, I'd guess in North America, they might take the upper half to upper third of the green zone which represents the sub-arctic. In asia, probably a northern strip. Basically, tough competition down south.

What am I basing these assessments on? Wild mass guessing. I'm going seat of the pants.

I'm talking to DirtyCommie privately as well on some of this stuff, so I assume when he launches the timeline, it'll be a lot more concrete and well thought out.

 

[mrmandias]

Don't gild the lily. In Lands of Red and Gold, there was just a little bit too much of it. This is really cool without going all Nanook of the Entire North.

 

[omnimercurial]

Good work on the Maps & possible migration/expansion routes. ^_^ Inuit may need greater levels of contact & communication to maintain links & develop further though. The SubArctic Towns/Cities with Pykrete food preservation store houses etc may be Food Banks&Trading Hubs for mobile clans passing through to contribute to foodstores & share knowledge as they meet, But this can be enhanced to ensure cohesiveness. Maybe early contact with Amerindian Tribes could have Inuit adopting Smoke Signals or Drums?

 

[omnimercurial]

I think the Drums would have more utility than Smoke Signals, You can hear those day or night. Smoke Signals would probably be rejected totally in the Arctic North though to avoid wasting combustibles. Maybe Polished stone or metal reflecting surfaces for flashes of light to signal others would be better, this could be developed further & combined with Animal Fat/Blubber Lamps with shutters to create an Inuit Morse code variant. What I really look forward to though is how A written language may develop.

 

[DValdron]

Over large distances, it would be difficult if not impossible to maintain communication and solidarity.

Assuming colonization of Svalbard, Franz Josef Land, Novaya Zemla and Severna Zemla, it's almost certain that contact would be lost during the little ice age and these places would become isolates, probably moving backwards a bit.

The Russian coast Inuit, if they get that far, would probably diverge into a series of coastal states or nations.

You might see a fairly continous society maintaining economic and political cohesion in the Canadian arctic, from Alaska to Greenland. Even there, you've got an area the size of Western Europe.

 

[omnimercurial]

Hmmm... I agree that the sheer Distance involved, Along with the difficulties of traversing it may indictate that A Cultural Divergance is Inevitable. It may however be possible for contact to be maintained even with A Cultural split. If an Inuit written language is developed soon enough, Then both tribes even if on separate Continents, Can potentially communicate over distance. My hope is that Alt Inuit Domestication practices may extend towards breeding A viable Messenger Bird.

 

[mrmandias]

If you want your culture to be recognizably Inuit, then its developing late enough that an independent system of writing is a wank. That goes double for messenger birds and other such foolishness.

 

[DValdron]

This is free association phase dude. The floor is open. Everyone gets to throw in their wild ideas. Relax.

My own thinking is that independently developed writing is unlikely under the circumstances. The actual likely outcome, is that writing will be adopted by cultural contact with the decaying Greenland colony. The history of Cree syllabics is a relevant precedent.

In OTL the Greenland colony died out basically because the little ice age got them. They were dependent on cattle, which was at the outer limits of its viable range. As available cattle pasturage dropped, they ran out of options.

In ATL the Greenland colony is doomed, for that reason. It's hard to get around the Little Ice Age.

But arguably, a more robust inuit culture with an effective northern package would have more points of stable contact with Greenland, and some basis of trade, or exchange. So we'd expect the Greenland colony to do a bit better during its heyday. Like I said, won't save them from the Little Ice Age, but they're likely to be slightly or somewhat more prosperous.

And when the Little Ice Age finally puts paid, there's a chance that some greenlanders, rather than stoically starving in silence, may end up as refugees cast upon the Inuit.

Now, that makes some options for enough points of contact for some cultural transferance, particularly given that the ATL Inuit culture is still expansive and flexible. Writing isn't an unreasonable transference.

 

[wolf_brother]

What are the butterfly effects here? You seem to be looking exclusively at the inuit but the potential here far surpasses them. Domestication of caribou and musk-ox, in a rapidly spreading culture? Come on now, its obvious the rest of at least North America is going to pick up on this, starting likely are the Inuit have spread south somewhat the trick will rapidly move through OTL's Quebec, Ontario, and the Northeast US. That's going to have massive butterfly effects.

EDIT: And what about disease? Domestication breeds disease, which means the Inuit and other northern natives now have at least potentially one biological weapon of their own for when the Europeans show up. That alone will have its own, huge, set of butterflies to deal with.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

Would be interesting if the developments occurred early enough so that they had already started to consolidate by the time the Norse arrived that could make for some interesting contacts there - maybe they would be more willing to adopt some of the norse ways. maybe even sheep would be a neat turn of events

 

[DValdron]

Hmmm... I agree that the sheer Distance involved, Along with the difficulties of traversing it may indictate that A Cultural Divergance is Inevitable. It may however be possible for contact to be maintained even with A Cultural split. If an Inuit written language is developed soon enough, Then both tribes even if on separate Continents, Can potentially communicate over distance. My hope is that Alt Inuit Domestication practices may extend towards breeding A viable Messenger Bird.

There are lots of migrators in the Arctic and Sub-Arctic, and a handful of sedentary species. But I don't know that any of them would have the required traits to breed a viable messenger.

In OTL, except for carrier pigeons, there aren't that many or any messenger birds that I'm aware of. And even for carrier pigeons, the carrying capacity of a pigeon isn't that great, particularly in comparison to the sort of investment you need to maintain the things.

But on reflection, this version of Inuit culture may see a cultural need or advantage to some sort of long range or at least medium range signalling.

The big barrier to cultural divergence is the relative time frame. Really, we're working in a period of seven or eight hundred year in the context of an expanding and mobile society. But even in OTL, the Thule/Inuit culture fractured readily into a handful of cultures, with dialects shifting markedly.

What kind of political structures will evolve among these Inuit, and how widespread or comprehensive they are is an interesting ongoing debate. I don't actually have answers.

What I am thinking about is common cultural facets and traditions which may tie or link inuit groups.

But really, as I've said, at this point, it's a lot of brainstorming and free association. The concrete ideas will boil out.

 

[Domoviye]

I would start this off earlier with the Thule.
Get the Thule starting to farm, and domesticate a few birds and a muskox or caribou, and then have the warlike Inuit come in and conquer everything.
This will let the society advance further before getting hit by the Europeans, and the domestics can move south into the boreal forest.

 

[DValdron]

What are the butterfly effects here? You seem to be looking exclusively at the inuit but the potential here far surpasses them. Domestication of caribou and musk-ox, in a rapidly spreading culture? Come on now, its obvious the rest of at least North America is going to pick up on this, starting likely are the Inuit have spread south somewhat the trick will rapidly move through OTL's Quebec, Ontario, and the Northeast US. That's going to have massive butterfly effects.

EDIT: And what about disease? Domestication breeds disease, which means the Inuit and other northern natives now have at least potentially one biological weapon of their own for when the Europeans show up. That alone will have its own, huge, set of butterflies to deal with.

Having these discussions. Among other things, there are going to be huge butterflies handicapping the British (but not necessarily the French fur trade).

In terms of domestication issues, I'm not sure that domesticating caribou will spread. You might see it with the Dene. Or you might see the Dene overrun.

Move south past the Dene, and you've got the swampy cree. Not good caribou territory. Moose country actually. But the Swampy Cree are riverine people, their lifestyle was such that they never domesticated moose for the same reason that the Inuit didn't domesticate caribou. Partly, didn't need to, and partly, the animal's life cycle was incompatible with their cultural economics.

Another thing is if you look at the precedent of Reindeer domestication with the lapplanders, that only goes back about 500 years, and it seems to have had something to do with territorial encroachment by the Norwegians. The Lapps, prior to that, simply followed the herds or hunted seasonally, and saw no real interest. So, there was something that happened to the people/territory equation that shifted things over. I think we've got a comparable mechanism for the Inuit, but I'm not persuaded that the mechanism would kick in for southern cultures.

As for the rest of the agricultural package, I'm somewhat cautious on how far south it would effectively extend, and the degree that cultures like the Swampy Cree or the Dene would pick it up.

In terms of disease issues, we've got an argument going on, on that score right now. I'm not inclined to think that Musk Ox are going to pose much of a problem - they'll be more victims than vectors - low population densities and sedentary habits. Caribou are riskier, highly mobile herds and high population densities. But even there, there's issues in degree of risk assessment.

But even if, for instance, you don't have widespread domestication/agriculture/diseases spreading to cultures south of the inuit, there's going to be at least two classes of butterflies which will shake up the south.

 

[DValdron]

I would start this off earlier with the Thule.
Get the Thule starting to farm, and domesticate a few birds and a muskox or caribou, and then have the warlike Inuit come in and conquer everything.
This will let the society advance further before getting hit by the Europeans, and the domestics can move south into the boreal forest.

As I understand it, the Thule culture essentially are the modern Inuit. Or to be more technically accurate, the Thule culture is the ethnic and cultural group that the various modern Inuit cultures all organically derive from, and who the Inuit groups consider to be their direct forbears and their own history. Right now, I tend to use the term Thule/Inuit.

The Dorset culture, in comparison were clearly supplanted and displaced by the Thule, and were ethnically and technologically distinct. Inuit legends appear to consistently depict the Dorset as a taller, larger race, but timid and easily driven away.

I'm suggesting a subtle POD between 900 and 1000 CE, just prior to the cultural expansion of the Thule/Inuit from their homelands in Alaska. Essentially, the POD is that the Thule/Inuit in Alaska, adopt the Dene-Ina practice of replanting portions of the root of Eskimo Potato (Alpine Sweetvetch) to encourage and facilitate regrowth of the plant.

This is not agriculture per se, its just a cultural trait, not significantly different from saying a prayer to the animal you've hunted after you killed it. But it does result in wider distributions of Alpine Sweetvetch, more growth, and more predictable harvesting opportunities.

The result is an increase in the amount of Sweetvetch consumed, and therefore a measurable increase in the total amount of food available to the Inuit. This leads to slightly more population, and subtly different approaches to territory and land management - essentially, slightly smaller and more defined resource territories, with a larger emphasis on fixed locations.

Still not agriculture, but setting the conditions for an agricultural tipping point.

But perhaps I've said too much.

 

[Domoviye]

As I understand it, the Thule culture essentially are the modern Inuit. Or to be more technically accurate, the Thule culture is the ethnic and cultural group that the various modern Inuit cultures all organically derive from, and who the Inuit groups consider to be their direct forbears and their own history. Right now, I tend to use the term Thule/Inuit.

The Dorset culture, in comparison were clearly supplanted and displaced by the Thule, and were ethnically and technologically distinct. Inuit legends appear to consistently depict the Dorset as a taller, larger race, but timid and easily driven away.

I'm suggesting a subtle POD between 900 and 1000 CE, just prior to the cultural expansion of the Thule/Inuit from their homelands in Alaska.

Gah, brain fart. I thought I had the name wrong.
Well I'll leave the POD to you, and just watch with interest.
With a POD that late I don't think there will be much chance for disease to develop. As you said the domestics don't really call out for one, and if the Inuit are still semi-domestic there is even less chance of it developing quickly.

 

[DValdron]

Would be interesting if the developments occurred early enough so that they had already started to consolidate by the time the Norse arrived that could make for some interesting contacts there - maybe they would be more willing to adopt some of the norse ways. maybe even sheep would be a neat turn of events

Did the Greenland colony have sheep? I'm certain it had cattle, and I think a small population of horses would have been likely during its peak. But sheep? Got a reference?

There'd inevitably be some cultural transference from the Norse, but the question is what, and how much. Thing to remember about the Greenland colony is that it wasn't all that successful, ultimately failed. It's not like the Thule/Inuit are going to be inspired to adopt the lifestyle of either the belligerent but impoverished asses who trade/fight, or the later starving refugees who might end up on the doorstep.

But what do they get from the Norse, and what do they do with it. That's the big big question.

 

[DValdron]

Gah, brain fart. I thought I had the name wrong.
Well I'll leave the POD to you, and just watch with interest.
With a POD that late I don't think there will be much chance for disease to develop. As you said the domestics don't really call out for one, and if the Inuit are still semi-domestic there is even less chance of it developing quickly.

Ah, not to worry, it's all good.

Ideas welcome and will be considered and dissected in good faith.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

There'd inevitably be some cultural transference from the Norse, but the question is what, and how much. Thing to remember about the Greenland colony is that it wasn't all that successful, ultimately failed

almost 500 years is fairly successful for any colony in an arctic region imho.

Did the Greenland colony have sheep?

yes, they kept both cattle and sheep and some horses 2.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/voyage/subset/greenland/history.html

and

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/greenland/

and several other sites... would find more but i gotta run for now

eitherway, keep this thread alive. i like where it's going...