I was wondering: What are ways that Pre-Columbian North American natives could graduate from hunter-gatherer societies, to cities and by extension, nations, without European influence?
WI: Industrialised Pre-Columbians?
- Thread starter dalamplighter
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Quite a few Amerindian groups practiced settled Agriculture and their are more than a few that had large cities, cities that at various times dwarfed anything in Europe.
Basically you just need the right combination of things to happen, I mean when it comes down to it Europe was basically just lucky.
Basically you just need the right combination of things to happen, I mean when it comes down to it Europe was basically just lucky.
I'm working on something like that. It started out as a way for the Native American's to defeat colonization but finding that alot more needs to happen and one is a very advanced society. My POD is 760 when the Norse have a colony on Long Island as well as Greenland and Nova Scotia. This happens 100 years before the orginal landing.
Yeah, that's along the lines of what I was thinking, POD where the Vinland skraelings pick up a few things from the Norse, and eventually, the rest of North America.
Already happened. Not sure what else you want.
Sure, not all were at city level, but I can't think of any Pre-Columbian people who were not agricultural, save for those of the Pacific Northwest, who still lived in large towns and only didn't practice agriculture because there was no need too. But other than them, even the people of the Great Plains were agricultural, only going back to being hunter-gatherers after getting horses which made buffalo hunting that much easier. Ironic really, that the iconic culture of the plains people so often hoisted by earthy types was in actuality partly a European invention. Anyways, beyond the plains, I'm sure the Anasazi could fit the city bill, along with the Mississippians who covered much of the eastern USA and lived in very large cities, some of which approached the size of cities in ancient Mexico. Search Cahokia in google.
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Did any of the pre-Columbian natives have metalworking? I think the Incas could work gold, but that's a relatively soft metal. Could any pre-Colombian civilizations work bronze, iron, etc? Without metals, you can't industrialize. The Inca roads and Aztec floating islands are great, but they're not industry.
The Purepecha worked some bronze, and the Mayans often worked copper. They had copper jewelry and copper weapons. Quite common too. I've seen many examples of copper axes they used.
All the great pre-columbian civilizations worked copper, many smelted it (IIRC). Heck, the Inuit and Dene WORKED copper (hence Yellowknife NWT, and Coppermine river), although that was native (i.e. metallic) copper nodules worked into tools.
IIRC, not only did some (pre-Inca) culture work bronze, but one of the Aztec's neighbours (Tarascans???) were just starting to.
Iron, certainly, wasn't in anyone's toolbox yet.
There were several ways in which the pre-Columbian civilizations of the New World JUST missed out on several major advances.
The Inca had draft animals, but no writing. The Aztecs had writing but no draft animals. Neither had functional wheels (just toys
). Getting guinea pigs to the Mesoamericans as food animals would have helped. Iron-working COULD have been discovered, or introduced by a lone shipwrecked Phoenician/Norse/...Iron, certainly, wasn't in anyone's toolbox yet.
There were several ways in which the pre-Columbian civilizations of the New World JUST missed out on several major advances.
The Inca had draft animals, but no writing. The Aztecs had writing but no draft animals. Neither had functional wheels (just toys
In regards to Inca writing, they seem to have used a system of knots as a writing and record keeping system (before you ask its taken from 1491
, thats a partial title I'll get you a full one if you want when I get back from Easter). In the AmerInds defense they were quite ahead of the Euros in many ways, agricultural yields supported huge populations, they really adapted the continent to suit them many ways. For Instance, Plains Indians used to regularly burn the praire in order to cultivate grass for Foodstuffs as well as use cliffs to create Buffalo Kills. In Amazonia, there is evidence of man made islands created out of pottery shards and then linked by raised Causeways all across the upper Amazon. The evidence suggests that this was done 1000 CE or before and to think Netherlands and Fens weren't drained until the 1600s (?) [Again 1491]
We are all familar with the Mayan astronomical advances.
I wonder if the lack of advancement into Iron smelting is a problem with where the advanced civilizations were located. To my knowledge, neither Inca nor Maya were located close to accessible Iron Deposits and so never had access to the raw material to begin experimenting in the first place.
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Marty, surely you mean 1491, right? I loved that book, it boosted my interest in the Mayans by a lot. And now I'm slightly obsessive on the subject. And yes, I think you are right in the regard that they were unlucky in that they had no access to iron deposits. Also, in response to Dathi, it wasn't a missed opportunity in regards to Aztecs lacking draft animals if there was no opportunity. Aztec seafarers did not lack the skill of the Maya or Caribbean peoples IIRC, and even then getting to Peru would still be very difficult. So they had no access at all to any draft animals. The largest animals Mesoamericans could domesticate were deer, who served as pets for nobility. And there was therefore no real use for wheels besides rickshaws or wheelbarrows, which they lacked for two main reasons: terrain was awful, aside from the excellent road networks, and labor was important to them. Usage of slaves would be a valid excuse for war which would help the rulers greatly. With easier labor, less need for slaves, and less reason for war. Also, less source of income for traders. Traders were a universally beloved class of people among the ancient Mexicans.
Yes Exactly. I will edit my post. It was fascinating and should be required in every H.S. classroom in America but unfortunately most of my fellow Americans lack the vocabulary to understand it without a dictionary.
I had a professor of Anthropology who basically taught beginning Anthro as Maya 101 and so I learned a lot there. But the Stuff in the Inca chapters was fascinating. Especially the Knot Work.
Anyway back on topic. WI we avoid the major die-off of Western Hemisphere Horses about 50,000 yrs ago? Would that Help?
I didn't pay too much attention to the parts regarding Incas themselves, but yes, it should be required reading. Dispels that BS myth typical peeps believe that all Indians were "primitive" tribal people who never advanced in technology and were one with the earth, yada yada yada...
And yes, let's get back to topic. Horses would probably help, but they'd also probably butterfly all existing cultures we know in the area away. If the goal is more technology and actual industry, less warfare might help. I made a somewhat long point about why they did not adopt wheels to help with labor in a previous post, but let's assume they did. The technology is all there after all. They could even train dogs to pull carts perhaps, like what the plains people did with the travois. Hell, just make them them put wheels on a travois and there ya go. This might lessen the amount of warfare, and although I did mention slavery was a major source of revenue, this might drive traders to explore more, advancing their seafaring tech too, and they keep going from there. Mesoamerican cultures were very capitalist, despite having no currency other than cacao beans. Money would be perhaps the biggest drive towards industry.
And yes, let's get back to topic. Horses would probably help, but they'd also probably butterfly all existing cultures we know in the area away. If the goal is more technology and actual industry, less warfare might help. I made a somewhat long point about why they did not adopt wheels to help with labor in a previous post, but let's assume they did. The technology is all there after all. They could even train dogs to pull carts perhaps, like what the plains people did with the travois. Hell, just make them them put wheels on a travois and there ya go. This might lessen the amount of warfare, and although I did mention slavery was a major source of revenue, this might drive traders to explore more, advancing their seafaring tech too, and they keep going from there. Mesoamerican cultures were very capitalist, despite having no currency other than cacao beans. Money would be perhaps the biggest drive towards industry.
David S Poepoe
Banned
In a work of fiction or movie, but in reality how will the knowledge expand past a localized area? Also do ALL Phoenician or Norsemen know who to mine and smelt iron?
Actually there were iron deposits relatively nearby which could have been obtained by trade or conquest.
The problem with iron smelting is that it requires the creation of very high temperatures in your smelter/forge. In the Old World, people gradually figured out how to do this during the course of the Bronze Age, through their experiences in smelting copper and bronze, but it took them a couple of thousand years.
The Bronze Age in South America didn't really begin until about 1200 AD, and in Mesoamerica not until about 1400 AD. So those civilizations were still in the learning phase as far as smelting bronze was concerned, and nowhere near the technical proficiency needed to smelt iron.
Due to a variety of reasons, mainly due (according to Jared Diamond, at any rate) to the north/south orientation of the landmasses in the Americas, technology in general was slow to develop in the Americas. And these factors really aren't something that are easily fixed.
Eurasia's mainly East-West orientation created a large area with similar lattitudes. These areas had similar climates as well. Migrating Eurasians didn't have to adopt new crops, or take inordinately long periods of time adapting old crops and domestic animals to new climates, as they moved east or west across the Eurasian landmass. Native Americans migrating north or south did have to do these things, and as a result, the spread of agriculture, and technology in general, was much, much slower. Other factors, such as a relative dearth of easily domesticable plants and animals in the Americas compared to Eurasia, also retarded the advancement of the Americas.
And since technology builds off itself...for example, agriculture generally leads to urbanization, which allows greater opportunity for specialization of labor within the culture, and generally creates a larger population base, which means there are people available to experiment around with stuff and stumble on inventions like smelting...unless you solve those basic issues retarding the development of agriculture, it's virtually impossible to get to bronze smelting in the Americas much faster than it occurred in OTL. And without the necessary first step of bronze-smelting, it's very difficult to get to iron smelting.
The guns were made of bronze, which is a perfectly suitable metal for guns (hand-held firearms were sometimes made with bronze barrels up into the mid-18th century, and cannon were made of it right up into the mid-19th century). Bronze was discovered in the Andes about 1200 AD and was known and used by the Inca (Tawantinsuya).
Later, they switched to iron and steel after capturing Spanish smiths, and later, through exchange of knowledge with the English.
They developed agriculture just fine in most places south of Canada, the problem in that regards was more of a lack of resources. It's why the Anasazi "vanished", and why the Classic Maya superpower cities were abandoned. They just couldn't sustain their populations on the amount of food they could grow in the area. Mississippians and Amazonians may have had less problems in this regard, but I don't know how long either of them were building cities.