WI: Industrial revolution takes place in China, century earlier than OTL
- Thread starter Zeldar155
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Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Basicly, What would happen if the industrial revolution took place in China, instead of Europe?
Would there be asian "colonial empires" in Europe?
Would an empowered chinese empire demand territory and concessions from european states instead of OTL?
Nope.
They don't.
Basically what Ringo said.
The Chinese did not place much value in what was beyond their own borders. Even when the British got the Emperor to cede Hong Kong to them, the Emperor stated, "There is nothing you have that we need." This basically sums up all Chinese thought well into the 20th century, that there is nothing of value to be gained from anything outside China. That's why the Chinese fleets of the Ming dynasty did not actually go exploring; they merely went to places already known and extracted tribute from them. If there is nothing of value to be gained, then why get territorial concessions from Europe?
The Chinese did not place much value in what was beyond their own borders. Even when the British got the Emperor to cede Hong Kong to them, the Emperor stated, "There is nothing you have that we need." This basically sums up all Chinese thought well into the 20th century, that there is nothing of value to be gained from anything outside China. That's why the Chinese fleets of the Ming dynasty did not actually go exploring; they merely went to places already known and extracted tribute from them. If there is nothing of value to be gained, then why get territorial concessions from Europe?
I don't think there'd be an active, government-directed campaign of overseas colonization, but I would think that there'd be expanded Chinese mercantile interests in Indochina and the East Indies. For one thing, an Industrial Revolution would likely require some extensive market reforms to really get that entreprenial spirit going, and if that's established then they're going to quickly expand outside of domestic markets and begin tapping into foreign trade centers for additional revenue.
Joint-stock companies, shares, regulated paper money that doesn't go belly-up like Song and Yuan attempts, etc. would be a good start. The financial structures of the Industrial Revolution are as important as the technological ones in fuelling the whole thing, after all.
There might be some efforts at expanding westward again, like during the Tang dynasty, although this depends entirely on when your proposed Industrial Revolution takes place exactly.
Joint-stock companies, shares, regulated paper money that doesn't go belly-up like Song and Yuan attempts, etc. would be a good start. The financial structures of the Industrial Revolution are as important as the technological ones in fuelling the whole thing, after all.
There might be some efforts at expanding westward again, like during the Tang dynasty, although this depends entirely on when your proposed Industrial Revolution takes place exactly.
Not if starting in 1630, that's too late and it will probably disrupted or at least highly delayed by the following Manchu campaigns, notably those against the Three Feudataries.
Have it begin around, say, 1580, and Manchus will be wiped out. That's unlikely though, because the late Ming court didn't like innovation in any form.
Maybe pre-mongol times or early Ming period are more suitable.
Early Qing are a possibility too.
As it is, you have to change Chinese culture in the first place for the Industrial Revolution to occur there, and earlier than in OTL.
Also, unlike Europe (which tended to treat the world as a resources depot) China feels that it has everything it needs.
Also, unlike Europe (which tended to treat the world as a resources depot) China feels that it has everything it needs.
The Late Ming court had a problem with eunuchs who were very much in control of the government at that point and didn't really want anybody to rock the boat, but it wasn't like they screamed "RARGH CHANGE BAD STATUS QUO GOOD" to every little idea that popped up.
That's a simplistic view and not entirely correct. The Silk Road ran both ways, after all. Trade is good and many merchants realized this. Countless Chinese traders engaged in international commerce IOTL, establishing significant communities in Manila, Batavia (Jakarta), Hanoi, and other locations that could easily be reached from Chinese ports.
Max Sinister
Banned
Bump.
Recently I read something on TV Tropes which made me think:
China invented porcelain before they had glass. As a consequence, they had no (obvious) need for inventing glass.
While this has advantages (some people speculated that the Roman upper class made themselves sterile by drinking wine from crystal glasses containing lead), it also has severe consequences.
Think about a civilization tech tree: Without glass, you don't have lenses. This means:
* No glasses. Scholars were very respected in China (good), but what would a scholar do if he becomes short-sighted, or far-sighted with age? I wish Hendryk was still here to answer this.
* No microscopes. So also no discovery of germs, no vaccination, etc.
* No telescopes. The outer planets, planetoids and moons of other planets stay undiscovered, let alone objects outside of our solar system.
* Practical Chemistry may become harder if you don't have beakers, Erlenmeyer flasks etc. you can see through, and which have marks to indicate volume. Work would be less exact. Consequences? Too many to go into detail.
* Thermometers and barometers become impossible if you have no see-through material.
* Too many technical parts to mention.
Recently I read something on TV Tropes which made me think:
China invented porcelain before they had glass. As a consequence, they had no (obvious) need for inventing glass.
While this has advantages (some people speculated that the Roman upper class made themselves sterile by drinking wine from crystal glasses containing lead), it also has severe consequences.
Think about a civilization tech tree: Without glass, you don't have lenses. This means:
* No glasses. Scholars were very respected in China (good), but what would a scholar do if he becomes short-sighted, or far-sighted with age? I wish Hendryk was still here to answer this.
* No microscopes. So also no discovery of germs, no vaccination, etc.
* No telescopes. The outer planets, planetoids and moons of other planets stay undiscovered, let alone objects outside of our solar system.
* Practical Chemistry may become harder if you don't have beakers, Erlenmeyer flasks etc. you can see through, and which have marks to indicate volume. Work would be less exact. Consequences? Too many to go into detail.
* Thermometers and barometers become impossible if you have no see-through material.
* Too many technical parts to mention.
RousseauX
Donor
If you are looking for an industrial revolution you are better off going for the 12th century Southern Song dynasty than the Ming.
Paper money did go pretty well under the Song actually IIRC, it's collapse had more to do with the political collapse of the Song than any intrinsic lack of reliability in the Song currency system.
The Chinese began to use glass comparatively later than Egypt and Mesopotamia, but were definitely using it by the Zhou Dynasty.
An industrial Taipingguo might be an option--Hong Rengan, the brother of Hong Xiuquan, had many contacts with the Western missionary communities and envisioned the Heavenly Kingdom as an industrial powerhouse. Of course, you have to place him on the throne rather than Hong Xiuquan's incompetent son.
Isn't this far later than the OP suggested? And also well after the OTL Industrial Revolution?
FDW
Banned
The general problem here is that agricultural and economic system developed under the Song was really sufficient for China for several centuries, and was actually buttressed during the late Ming with the introduction of New World crops. It didn't really start to get stressed until the early 19th century, exactly when the Europeans started to want in on China. If you want an early Chinese Industrial revolution, the best way to go would be to keep China divided after the Tang dynasty, the competition present in such a situation might actually allow for an industrial revolution to come along.
Yes... but the chinese glass ive seen imitated alabaster and jade rather than crystal. Which makes for lousy lenses.
Clear glass is a whole different ball of wax from coloured glass.