WI: India under the Mughals remains as united as China is under the Qing

Osman Aga

Banned
As the title states. India remains largely united and the Mughal Emperors and do not crumble and lose to the Marathas and Persians. One thing I am certain is that the EIC would not actually try to conquer Bengal if it belongs to one state. But there are still some questionable scenarios...
1. Would this India be more decentralized (albeit united) and no large warfare with each other, than Qing China?
2. Would it be more advanced than Qing China was in the 19th century, with regards to industry, economy and military?
3. How would it affect colonialism in Asia, especially in the Indian Ocean area: Coastal India, Ceylon and South East Asia

Would this united India under the Mughals be relatively more successful than Qing China in the 19ht century or more or less the same, or even worse?

Link below is the bare minimum the Mughal India has to be

 
As the title states. India remains largely united and the Mughal Emperors and do not crumble and lose to the Marathas and Persians. One thing I am certain is that the EIC would not actually try to conquer Bengal if it belongs to one state. But there are still some questionable scenarios...
1. Would this India be more decentralized (albeit united) and no large warfare with each other, than Qing China?
2. Would it be more advanced than Qing China was in the 19th century, with regards to industry, economy and military?
3. How would it affect colonialism in Asia, especially in the Indian Ocean area: Coastal India, Ceylon and South East Asia

Would this united India under the Mughals be relatively more successful than Qing China in the 19ht century or more or less the same, or even worse?

Link below is the bare minimum the Mughal India has to be
1. Definitely more decentralized, China had a long tradition of an unified government under a large reaching bureaucracy (albeit the Qing did it so in a very light handed way), the Mughals, particularly one that goes all the way to the Carnatic) is going to be much more reliant on local powers and autonomous provincials to maintain rule over the Empire.
2. That's a really unknown since there is too many variables, it'll depend how the Mughals deal with its own internal affairs (ie Maratha and Nawaban rebellions) and how Indian society evolves through it, if Delhi can impose (hardly) a strong government capable of managing taxation well and provide easy enterprises it can work out, if not welp.
3. Too many variables, if European imperialism still kicks off you might see India ending up like China, not colonized but Europeans exerting influence through ports, railroads, etc. If not and India itself underwent a Industrial Revolution things are going to be interesting.
 
Mughal empire main money sources was trade between Safavid(Persian) and Ottoman . not by land revenue - the indian community at the level of villages was highly militarized by the end of the 17 century almost every village work as a self-sufficient military base of 200-500 people. The peasants of mughal in absence of millitary in the area never pay there tax to officer without any fight. almost 70% of land revenue ended in the pay for the army which comes to help in collecting revenue.
Mughal administration depended on the import of costly bureaucrat and military might on the import of horse archer from Central asia .
 
The Subedar system in which they maintained the militias instead of paying taxes.
That said could this system be implemented in the border provinces to provide a cheap way of maintaining a standing army at the borders.
I am talking about a village around Delhi and Agra in the hinterland of the mughal empire not in the border province . and mughal border province were hill land of Vindhya where Bundela Rajput always remain in warpath with the help of diamond mine Panna.
 
You are mistaken what I was suggesting was that could OTL's subedar system be implemented in the border provinces while a centralized army is created in the core provinces.
I already know that the Subedar System was widespread in the empire.
Mughal already have a centralised army in Delhi and three armies in border state at the western border, in Deccan and bangal . problem was uncooperative peasants who does not want to pay 50-60% tax.
 
Ok so I'm gonna ignore a lot of what has been said in this thread because id have to spend ages debunking a lot of misunderstandings of how the Mughal system worked and evolved, so I'm just gonna give my two cents with regards to op. But in short- succession Wars were actually very helpful for the empire, the only problem was Aurangzeb didn't let his sons do it properly. When Shah jahan died, you had four princes who had each spent decades managing vast amounts of money, rewarding loyalty, building alliances, finding a base of power they knew would support them. This meant new groups could keep being added to the nobility, and the top nobility was always being replaced and so were dependent on the emperor.

When Aurangzeb died you had a bunch of princes who were basically broke, couldn't promise anyone any rewards for following them, were too old to be inspirational, and a bunch of super rich nobles who Aurangzeb had favoured over his sons, who had no loyalty to any one son, and only cared about their own status, leading to the situation in the 18th century where no emperor had the power to challenge his nobility. Literally the only thing you need to have is Aurangzeb die 20-30 years earlier than otl and the empire is most likely to survive in top form for at least the next century.


Would this India be more decentralized (albeit united) and no large warfare with each other, than Qing China?
I think it could very well end up a lot more functionally centralised than Qing China in the 19th century, seeing that the Qing were limited by a commitment to minimal taxation, and that severely limited the central governments ability to do.. anything really, and each government official was forced to try and govern an absurd amount of people, forcing corruption. But on the other hand, I can see it functionally being a bit more similar to British India in terms of a large number of princely states especially in marginal areas, too small to do anything but support the imperial policy and military force, while the empire itself directly administers the most productive areas.


Would it be more advanced than Qing China was in the 19th century, with regards to industry, economy and military?
In terms of industry, most definitely, it's so well connected to the global world economy. If European companies can't establish territorial government that definitely won't stop them from continuing acting like companies and trying to expand their own industrial production in India, so even if no Indian merchant-nobles lead the charge in introducing new technologies, it's inconceivable that no Europeans would by the end of the 18th century. I also think Europeans would, if not setting up territorial administration, still be becoming more influential as members of the mughal nobility.

Like we said with the revolving door of the nobility, given the financial backing Europeans can offer candidates during wars of succession, European presence would strengthen imperial control , while the winners backers would find themselves integrated members of the nobility, bringing all their cultural and technical knowledge with them. There is no comparable avenue that allows Europeans power/money by strengthening the government in China, even when that would have been more profitable for them.




How would it affect colonialism in Asia, especially in the Indian Ocean area: Coastal India, Ceylon and South East Asia
Impossible to say- it definitely prevents any company from being able to humiliate China so easily. The Dutch might face a lot stronger competition in Indonesia and south east asia from the British if the latter can't focus on India. Whoever controls Indonesia would likely be forced to accept some level of vassaldom but that most likely just means they have to insert the emperors name in the khutba and mint mughal rupees in their lands, which is a win win, because the colonisers would want a more monetised economy anyway because it's easier to tax, and the mughals would be for a while at least, satisfied with their sovereignty being in their eyes so clearly accepted.
 
3. How would it affect colonialism in Asia, especially in the Indian Ocean area: Coastal India, Ceylon and South East Asia
Although not a complete expert, if India is never conquered by a European Power, and the Mughals remain the dominate and large force on the Subcontinent, It would totally effect the British economy, and how the EIC's profits, since they don't control Bengal and later all of India, since they don't control the Textile production, farming, and especially, Poppy growth, which was made into Opium, so this could in turn effect trade with Qing China
 
I would imagine for a stable mughal empire to exist they need to be tolerant no more destroying temples and building mosques over them....establish a parliament give some power to the various nobles and stuff....

establish independent bodies like courts perhaps another body who maintains secularism in the state

tbh mughal empire wouldn't have survived without making enormous concessions and compromises over religion executive powers etc
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I would imagine for a stable mughal empire to exist they need to be tolerant no more destroying temples and building mosques over them....establish a parliament give some power to the various nobles and stuff....

establish independent bodies like courts perhaps another body who maintains secularism in the state

tbh mughal empire wouldn't have survived without making enormous concessions and compromises over religion executive powers etc

The temple destruction thing is a bit of propaganda I think. More temples were built during the Mughal period than destroyed. Something I think @Madhukar_Shah could perhaps expand on, as I get the feeling he knows more on this than me.

A parliament may not be necessary given how the Mughal system worked before its decay, which was pretty effective in of itself.
 
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