What if Pavlo Skoropadskyi and/or Archduke Wilhelm had become more prominent in building a Ukrainian nation? What if an independent Kingdom of Ukraine could be established during or after the First World War? What would it look like?
I expected so but could it work with a white peace in the West and CP victory in the East?It’s only possible with a German victory in World War 1.
What about Archduke Wilhelm?Skoropadsky's regime is going to be an unpopular one with everyone but the landowners and capitalists and will have to be propped up by German bayonets. Skoropadsky will blame all his opposition on the Bolsheviks--and they will indeed be trying to undermine him (assuming a victorious Germany allows Bolshevik Russia to survive at all). But his unpopularity was hardly limited to Bolsheviks:
"From the very beginning, the Hetman regime was opposed by most Ukrainian organizations (see, eg, the All-Ukrainian Union of Zemstvos). Ukrainian nationalists criticized it for the following reasons: its pro-Russian orientation; its reliance on Russians, including individuals closely identified with the tsarist regime and members of the Constitutional Democratic (kadet) party and the Octobrist party, to staff important positions in the government and military; its indifference to Ukrainianization of the government and to Ukrainian autonomy; and its reliance on the German army (see Germany), which oppressed the population and exploited Ukraine economically. Socialists, meanwhile, criticized its reactionary policies, particularly its repressiveness, condoning of the landlords' terrorization of the peasantry, and unwillingness to effect comprehensive land reforms, as well as its support by the Russian capitalist Union of Industry, Trade, Finance, and Agriculture. The peasants reacted to the regime's excesses with numerous rebellions and guerrilla warfare (eg, that directed by Nestor Makhno and Yurii Tiutiunnyk), arson, and assassinations (eg, of Hermann von Eichhorn)…" http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages\H\E\Hetmangovernment.htm
In fairness to Skropadsky, he did have certain achievements; he did get the largely Russified upper classes to accept the idea of an independent Ukrainan state, and to a certain extent he did continue the cultural Ukrainaization that socialist Rada had begun.
It’s only possible with a German victory in World War 1.
How so?Actually no its also possible with a White 'victory' or Stalemate in the Russian Civil War.
I don't think what the Whites see will matter if Ukraine is actually unified and can defend against an exhausted White Russian Army.The Whites saw Ukraine as part of "Russia, One and Indivisible"
I don't think what the Whites see will matter if Ukraine is actually unified and can defend against an exhausted White Russian Army.
There was only one “if”.Lot of "ifs" there
There was only one “if”.
Let’s say there’s a White victory in the Russian Civil War - do you think Ukraine could remain independent?[/QUOTE
The sort of thing I had in mind was a white victory but to get there they accepted an independent Ukraine, personal union sort of thing.
There was only one “if”.
Let’s say there’s a White victory in the Russian Civil War - do you think Ukraine could remain independent?
It’s only possible with a German victory in World War 1.
I don't think what the Whites see will matter if Ukraine is actually unified and can defend against an exhausted White Russian Army.
What makes you think only the Whites will be invading? Poland and Romania will strike from the West.I don't think what the Whites see will matter if Ukraine is actually unified and can defend against an exhausted White Russian Army.
It would be independent in the same sense that Warsaw Pact states were independent, and yes, it would be expected to supply Germany with grain. Still better than being an SSR.Would you see a German victory Ukrainian Kingdom as truly independent though? Or would it be a German vassal state, heftily populated with Heer troops and bound to ship grain and stores to where Berlin demanded?
The same really. Ukraine is a new concept, which is actually stronger in East Galizia (still part of Austria- Hungary in a CP victory scenario) than in territories that would be part of Ukraine. And the landowners would be the ones making deals with Berlin and Vienna to have a authoritarian regime where they can keep all their land and privilegies. And yes, it would be a regime under constant threat by Liberals and Social Democrat who want democratic reforms and modernization, Revolutionary Socialists who wants, well, revolution and the Anarchists who want their own brand of revolution. And there would be lingering Russian loyalties that also is not going to make it any easier.What about Archduke Wilhelm?