WI: In 1405 the Ming Imperial Fleet was blown off course&discovered new lands?

Why do people always think that the Chinese literally knew nothing of the world outside of China.

Their main problem was just that they had no use for Indonesia, not that they didn`t know about it.

They had plenty of use for Indonesia- there were a whole lot of Chinese merchants and planters in the East Indies. Having trade links with a place doesn't automatically mean you're going to go out and conquer it. The trade links were stable, ever now and then a local ruler would swear allegiance to the Son of Heaven (like the Sultan of Malacca did) and everyone was happy with the situation remaining like that.
 
They had plenty of use for Indonesia- there were a whole lot of Chinese merchants and planters in the East Indies. Having trade links with a place doesn't automatically mean you're going to go out and conquer it. The trade links were stable, ever now and then a local ruler would swear allegiance to the Son of Heaven (like the Sultan of Malacca did) and everyone was happy with the situation remaining like that.

Yeah I mean that. Not cost-effective to invade. Makes more sense to spend ressources on conquering Vietnam, although that turned out to be a waste as well.
 
If this was looking for a story rather than a timeline, I could imagine the fleet being blow by a typhoon or something way South towards Antarctica, the men on the ship dying, whale hunting, seal hunting and cannibalism a desperate tale of survival until a single ship makes it back with tales of the Great Frozen South

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I think it is possible for the Wakou themselves to discover, trade and raid in America and Polynesia rather than asking for help of the Shogun or the Emperor..:D
 
If Chinese ships somehow make it to the Americas they'd exchange a few trinkets to the natives and report back to the emperor about there being a bunch of insignificant vassal peoples far to the east, they'd never bother to go collect tribute from them of course.

And no, Japan won't be much more eager to go over there at all. Japan already had new lands in the shape of Ezo which it didn't much bother with. It was more concerned with internal politics and the occasional invasion of Asia to keep the samurai happy in their hunt for glory.
 
If Chinese ships somehow make it to the Americas they'd exchange a few trinkets to the natives and report back to the emperor about there being a bunch of insignificant vassal peoples far to the east, they'd never bother to go collect tribute from them of course.

And no, Japan won't be much more eager to go over there at all. Japan already had new lands in the shape of Ezo which it didn't much bother with. It was more concerned with internal politics and the occasional invasion of Asia to keep the samurai happy in their hunt for glory.

People do tend to forget how big Japan is in itself, and wasn't it quite highly forested in this period too?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
People do tend to forget how big Japan is in itself, and wasn't it quite highly forested in this period too?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

After the sentoku era wars it was highly deforested and the shoguns of Tokugawa period stepped in to prevent an environmental disaster. (At least from what I read in Collapse by Jared Diamond, don´t know how reliable it is).

But I know that from 1600 till 1900 there were regularily famines in Japan and that tells you something right away.
 
My own TL based on this subject is that a fishing fleet gets pushed out by their rivals so they travel north of Manchuria and get blown by a seasonal storm eastward. Discover untapped (and unclaimed) fishing grounds on the US West Coast and take it to the government for recognition of their claim which draws the interest of private groups who trickle eastward.
 
The rumors about people finding those new lands will spread and trade might be made between the Japanese and the Americas sooner or later after the return voyage, they might be trading gold and New World crops like tomatoes which will help Japan later on.

You missed the Point.

You're relying on a stranded Fisherman who has no idea where he is, to go back and tell them about a foreign land that he was struggling to survive in.

He has no Idea where he is, and where Japan is.

he didn't find new land, he got lost.
 
The problem with any POD that involves Chinese expansion is that it will need a realignment of Chinese society. In traditional Confucian society, merchants were at the bottom of the social ladder. While the line between the gentry and merchants began to blur as merchants became richer and could afford to buy low ranks, this might have only begun to happen in the Qing, not so sure about the Ming. There was just no reason for Chinese to expand into new lands for trade. The only logical reason I could think of was if silver was discovered but for that they might have to go to Australia or North Mexico. It also doesn't help they have frontier on the mainland they can expand into.
 
The problem with any POD that involves Chinese expansion is that it will need a realignment of Chinese society. In traditional Confucian society, merchants were at the bottom of the social ladder. While the line between the gentry and merchants began to blur as merchants became richer and could afford to buy low ranks, this might have only begun to happen in the Qing, not so sure about the Ming. There was just no reason for Chinese to expand into new lands for trade. The only logical reason I could think of was if silver was discovered but for that they might have to go to Australia or North Mexico. It also doesn't help they have frontier on the mainland they can expand into.

This is true. But if (and another cliche here) Zheng He discovers vast silver reserves in Mexico on his first voyage, this will pave the way for Chinese trading empires across the Pacific, regardless what the Emperor decrees and what Confucian philosophy preaches. Pretty soon these same merchants will be so influential that the Imperial Court will rely on them for support, opening the way for a major transformation of the hierarchy.

I think we can agree that outright Chinese settlement or colonization is unlikely given the sheer size of the homeland. Yet it isn't hard to imagine indigenous tribes across the pacific following the footsteps of Korea and Japan, and building their own Chinese-influenced societies. Some of them may even claim to be the legitimate successor of the Ming after the Ming falls.
 
Basically a China trying to discover the new world is just like Holy Roman Empire or France trying to discover the New World...so if any thing it would be Majapahit or any neighboring maritime powers of China not China itself establishing trade and contact in the New World initially then China grabs the opportunity.
 
Last edited:
Top