Would the nations involved both provide carriers and escorts? It is not an uncommon occurence to have the NATO nations' navies provide escorts for US Navy CVBGs. Does the USN escort these carriers, or do the big non-US NATO navies (Britain, France and Italy) provide much of the carrier manpower and allow the smaller ones (Canada, Germany, Portugal, Spain, Greece, Turkey) to provide escorts?
Wi if the US navy offered the British CV's in the 1990's
- Thread starter Ward
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Would the nations involved both provide carriers and escorts? It is not an uncommon occurence to have the NATO nations' navies provide escorts for US Navy CVBGs. Does the USN escort these carriers, or do the big non-US NATO navies (Britain, France and Italy) provide much of the carrier manpower and allow the smaller ones (Canada, Germany, Portugal, Spain, Greece, Turkey) to provide escorts?
Manning
It would probably end up with a mix of both. Smaller navies would not be involved in manning and financing the carriers but larger ones would still provide escorts. Spain, France and Italy would provide the bulk of the Med force, Britain, Germany and the netherlands the bulk of the Atlantic force. USN units would probably join in, specially once the Aegis ships became available.
It would probably end up with a mix of both. Smaller navies would not be involved in manning and financing the carriers but larger ones would still provide escorts. Spain, France and Italy would provide the bulk of the Med force, Britain, Germany and the netherlands the bulk of the Atlantic force. USN units would probably join in, specially once the Aegis ships became available.
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Any minute now someone is going to suggest that, for reasons of economy in these fiscally challenged times, the EU merge it's armed forces, with the various navies carriers/helicopter carriers (France/UK/Spain/Italy) multi-nationally manned and eventually replaced with a common fleet (6-8?) of Euro-flat tops...
I'd heard that but whether it's still current I don't know. Certainly the rest of Europe aren't talking about it, which is a bit of a shame.
If they could be encouraged to join the club by putting a chunk of cash/men into the pot, perhaps one of the European nations would get to name one of the new carriers Graf Zeppelin?
Edit - wandering into ASB territory????
If they could be encouraged to join the club by putting a chunk of cash/men into the pot, perhaps one of the European nations would get to name one of the new carriers Graf Zeppelin?
Edit - wandering into ASB territory????
Reigning in the space bats
Easier way to do it would be:
France and Britain decide to cooperate on a carrier effort in the 60 much in the same way that was talked about last year. Each nation will operate one carrier, with common aircraft. France drops the plans to replace it's small carriers, Britain cancels the final upgrade to hers. After much talk they order two US built carriers, which makes sense financially. In the late 70s they get a Nimitz class each...
If we stay with the multinational POD it has to be NATO, not EU, NATO having a much earlier and better record at getting multinational projects working.
Easier way to do it would be:
France and Britain decide to cooperate on a carrier effort in the 60 much in the same way that was talked about last year. Each nation will operate one carrier, with common aircraft. France drops the plans to replace it's small carriers, Britain cancels the final upgrade to hers. After much talk they order two US built carriers, which makes sense financially. In the late 70s they get a Nimitz class each...
If we stay with the multinational POD it has to be NATO, not EU, NATO having a much earlier and better record at getting multinational projects working.
BlairWitch749
Banned
The theoretical crew size was 5000+
However, the Kitty Hawk's underwent a massive refit in the 90's including getting new turbines and new computer equipment which should have reduced their mandatory crew requirements
Basing shouldn't be a problem; there are cruise ships such as the QE2 that plied British waters of comparable size to a kitty hawk
so perhaps when the ships go in to Phily for their refits, the British can contract to take on 2 of them so that they can go with a plan of one on station, one in refit in rolling 6 month schedules
Whilst it makes sense financially to buy US carriers, it'd be political suicide for any politician, unless there was a substantial (minimum 51%?) of work carried out in the UK/France yards, which would tend to push the price up.
For an initial home-built (= politically acceptable) air wing, Buccaners (strike) and Etendards (fighters?!), with Super Frelons for ASW/AEW and maybe Gannets/Alize for COD/tanking. Fighters would preferably be Sea Harriers (for VIFFing) but that wouldn't go down well with the French, so maybe a fighter Jaguar gets developed.
Replacement air wing to comprise Rafale and Merlins. Which would probably mean Typhoon never gets built.
For an initial home-built (= politically acceptable) air wing, Buccaners (strike) and Etendards (fighters?!), with Super Frelons for ASW/AEW and maybe Gannets/Alize for COD/tanking. Fighters would preferably be Sea Harriers (for VIFFing) but that wouldn't go down well with the French, so maybe a fighter Jaguar gets developed.
Replacement air wing to comprise Rafale and Merlins. Which would probably mean Typhoon never gets built.
A british Nimitz...
The beauty of the anglofrench one carrier each deal is that it retains national freedom for non NATO missions. With a British CVN the argentines would not dare attack the Falklands, teacher would not be reelected...
And one Nimitz would be cheap compared with the cost of rebuilding ark royal and eagle and building three light carriers. The money would go for destroyers and frigates.
The beauty of the anglofrench one carrier each deal is that it retains national freedom for non NATO missions. With a British CVN the argentines would not dare attack the Falklands, teacher would not be reelected...
And one Nimitz would be cheap compared with the cost of rebuilding ark royal and eagle and building three light carriers. The money would go for destroyers and frigates.
Aircraft
This could save the naval jaguar and kill the super etendart. 70/80 airgroup would be phantoms with speys, buccaneers, French built jaguars and alizes, plus the inevitable hawk eyes. Current AG would have to be rafales and merlins but th thypon would still make sense. It has serious export potential.
Could the big F2 mirage or it's VG version have navalized?
This could save the naval jaguar and kill the super etendart. 70/80 airgroup would be phantoms with speys, buccaneers, French built jaguars and alizes, plus the inevitable hawk eyes. Current AG would have to be rafales and merlins but th thypon would still make sense. It has serious export potential.
Could the big F2 mirage or it's VG version have navalized?
Ark Royal and Eagle were rebuilt in the 1960s, as a consequence of the fact that the CVA-01 bit the dust and the other ships were too small. And keep in mind that one Nimitz would not actually be that cheap compared to carriers that you already have. A Nimitz in 1980 money would cost about a billion pounds to build, and that assumes US prices can be maintained by 1980s British shipyards, which may or may not be accurate. Beyond that, the Nimitz design uses all American electronics, which the British would either have to buy the rights to make themselves or replace with something of theirs that is comparable. What does that cost? And beyond that, assuming an RN Nimitz is out there, how does it work with British aircraft? Do the British buy the Tomcat or do they stick to Spey Phantoms? Do Buccaneers fit? Hawkeyes bought, or something else? Lots of questions, all of which would probably shove the price up.
BlairWitch749
Banned
Maybe prior to the kitty hawk's going to phily, the british could contract to have one go to a british yard for refit, whilst the other one gets rebuilt and upgraded in phily to be delivered to the british later; they can still go with whatever air wing they want; as the kitty hawk's are big enough to operate anything; and with a large scale computer installation hopefully the crew size can be brought down to reasonable levels
Money problems again, and the political issues. The Brits are having a beast of a time finding the money for their two carriers, and the British public probably wouldn't stomach the cost of buying a very old aircraft carrier from the Americans and rebuilding it, unless they got it for practically nothing. Crew levels on a Kitty Hawk are huge - 3,297 officers and men before the air wing. You'd have to cut that by a third at least to be able for the RN to economically maintain it. Could that be done? Probably (the USN does tend to overman their ships, and automation can help further), but to that level I don't honestly know.
As good as the land-based Jaguar was, there was a lot of development potential left in the Buccaneer. And then there was just how damned good the Buccaneer was in it's role, I doubt a Jaguar would have been a better replacement.
If nothing else, the Bucc would have been used later in life at sea for electronic warfare (UK/F-Prowler) and as a tanker.
BlairWitch749
Banned
If they got America and the JFK those would only be 30ish and high 20ish years old and coming out of a major refit; so they could theoretically serve another 20 plus years (as they did in otl)
And the refits on the kitty hawks came in at decent budget numbers 500ish million a pop; which included new engines and major systems upgrades that allowed them to serve another 20 years (and easily could have served longer, but the US no longer had the need); getting two big daddy fleet carriers ready for 25 years of service for about a billion dollars (ships only) is still a real bargain compared to some of the other dead ends we have explored and the british have traveled down
it's not like there where not surplus aircraft that couldn't be bought on the cheap either
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I agree about the Bucc - more powerful turbofans (The Allison TF41 from the A-7 would be a good option, as it was developed from the Spey) would have improved the payload further. If the carriers had come to pass, I would have dusted off the Naval Jaguar just to get the French on board and had one light attack squadron (12 aircraft) on board with those. Two heavy squadrons of Buccaneer S.3s (28 aircraft) and three fleet air defense squadrons using the F-4 Phantom II (36-42 aircraft), as well as a two or three Hawkeyes, Gannets and Sea Kings for ASW work and two Wessex helicopters for search and rescue. If the RN had the cash, swap out one of the F-4 squadrons for one with F-14 Tomcats. In the 1990s, Britain joins the French with the Rafale while souping up the Phantoms, and starts replacing the souped-up F-4s with the Rafale in the early 2000s.
But you still have to deal with public opinion, crewing costs and the fact that the British aren't gonna use the American aircraft or American systems, which means you need to refit them again to handle the new stuff, and that costs considerable money. The refits you speak of also didn't particularly reduce the number of men on board, and a crew of 3,300 is far too much for the 1970s RN.
If you want the British to operate two full-sized fleet supercarriers, you have to have them expand their facilities (Devonport and Southampton are very marginal for a supercarrier, and their dry-docks aren't big enough) and be willing to expand their military budget or keep it high through the 1970s. That means improving Britain's industrial economy, and quite a lot. That means a POD of around the end of WWII, which in itself causes lots of butterflies.
If conventional carrier ops continue through the 80's then the Buccaneer would continue development into atleast an S3 version and possibly and S4 using avionic similer to otls Tornado. Continued development of the Bucc would probably buterfly away the Toranado, its what their crews wanted anyway. Fighters would be the Phantom uptil 83-84 after which they'd probably go for the F/A 18 look to an eventual withdrawl of the Bucc mid 90's. Early Awacs would be Gannets possibly replaced by Hawkeyes at the same time as the Phantom.