WI if flavius aetius was not assassinated

I read somewhere that during the roman withdrawal of britain he urged the emperor to assist britain.

what if Flavius Aetius had gone to britain himself with legions?

It can be up to you whether it is before Atilla arrives or after the battle of the catalaunian fields.

I'm interested in creating my own alternate timeline where someon liek Flavius helps create a strong Romano British entity.




this is in part inspired by the raptor of spain timeline
 
WI Flavius Aetius Before His Assassination & After....

sorry for the spelling, atrocious I kow but typing in the dark with no light doesn't help one bit.

any takers for this then?
 
The question you posed is way too dependant on the timing and reasons of his departure, which you have declined to specify.

If he heads there early, then there won't be the spout between him and Count Boniface, this having major consequences as Africa is not lost to the Vandals, and you would see a campaign Boniface vs Attilla as opposed to Aetius. If he heads there late... well it really depends on the timing.

Perhaps a good reason for him to flee to Britian would be that Boniface is not killed, and Aetius must flee across the sea in order to be safe.

I should imagine that if he goes without orders he will immediately be considered a rebel, though how much anyone really cares about Britian to hunt him down is debatable.
 
what if a confrontation between boniface and attila?

the pod would be when the legions from Brittania are recalled back to the heartland of the empire, is there anyway Flavius Aetius can muster enough support whilst remaining in favour with the western roman empire?

Or is there some way for him to be able to carry out this campaign to restore Brittania as a roman province that may eventually lead to it becoming his own personal fiefdom?
 
what if a confrontation between boniface and attila?

the pod would be when the legions from Brittania are recalled back to the heartland of the empire, is there anyway Flavius Aetius can muster enough support whilst remaining in favour with the western roman empire?

Or is there some way for him to be able to carry out this campaign to restore Brittania as a roman province that may eventually lead to it becoming his own personal fiefdom?

Personally, I'd guess that Boniface can beat Attila based on the fact that he could beat Aetius, but of course Real life isn't so simple as that.

I'm still not clear on the POD, but as a General rule of thumb if he goes off and does something without orders, then he'll immediately be regarded as an usurper who is trying to depose the emperor (And based on what we know about Aetius, they'd probably be correct.)

If you want him fighting in Britian, IMO the best way to do it is still him fleeing there after a loss to Boniface, and inviting Barbarians under his standard for protection much like Boniface had done in Africa.

Perhaps he would even invade other sections of the empire during Attilas invasion, or make an alliance with Attila to mount a joint invasion.
 
Well! Inspired by my TL, I like that!

How about this: When Valentinian attempts to kill Aetius, Aetius manages to get the knife (or whatever weapon it was) away and kills Valentinian. What happens?
 
I always wanted to see what would happen if Attila didnt face Aetius, and it would be a tough stretch him fighting alongside Attila with Aetius' history.

But stockholm syndrome and all that :p

I would have him defeated and flee to to the british isles claiming he was going there to restore roman order, eventually being left to his own defences with the romano british and native celts.

Any chance he could unite them all and strike out against what remains in the norrth of the WRE and eventually ally with Attila? ny of this plausible?

And what of Boniface, what is his position at the moment?
 
If Aetius somehow kills Emperor Valentinian then Aetius's son marries Valentinian's daughter, like he was trying to get accomplished when he was murdered, and they rule as Emperor and Empress. Aetius most likely will attempt to retake Africa from Vandals for his son. If he lives for 5-10 years longer Gibbons make it appear as if he could retake Africa and parts of Spain, stabilizing Western Roman Empire. I have also heard that Aetius urged Valentinian to order Roman Citizens to serve in the Army again so they werent reliant upon Barbarians. Overall i could see the Western Roman Empire last longer and maybe become like the Byzantine Empire.
 

Hecatee

Donor
I'm not sure so much can be done with the ressources of the time, and I'm even more dubious reading CaptainAmerica's idea of a western byzantine empire. The main reason for that being that Gaul really has left roman hands by this time and thus the path to Spain is wide open, as is the path to Italy. There is simply not enough forces, even with italian manpower, to man both sides of the Alps (western/gallic side and eastern/balcanic side, not even speaking of the northern invasion path through Helvetia) and the Pyrennees and keep enough forces to repel desert barbarians in Africa. Also communication between the three parts of this western empire (Spain/Italy/Africa) would be plagued by pirates from Southern France (a land that can't really be held without the Rhine) like what the Goth had done in the Egean earlier and what the Vandals would later do in our timeline.

Now if we only look at the suggested POD of WorldWarZ and have Aetius go to Britain, first we'd have to think about what forces he could count upon and what ressources he would find there :

- If he's fleeing for his life (taking what other posters suggested), he might not have a large military force under his command, maybe just next to 200 (which would still be a serious amount for the time, especially if they are disciplined veterans). Why not more ? Two reasons : troops might not follow a looser (and he would have few troops ready to follow if he just lost a battle as suggested by JosephK, especially since Boniface, also in search for troops, might offer a general pardon to the common soldiers of his ennemy, leaving Aetius with only his personnal bodyguard) and transport to Britain would lack to carry a much larger force.
- There he would find very few forces and a lot of empty fortress and marauding barbarians coming from the north or from the sea. He would have to first deal with establishing himself with a base of power in some city (probably a port in order to stay connected with events on the mainland, especially if he hopes to get back there), then secure the area around his base of operation to get some revenues allowing him to build enough forces to secure the interior of the roman province and put minimal maning at the most strategic places, thus providing conditions adequate for farming and, if possible, trade and industry. This would probably take him 5 to 10 years and leave him with the problem of sea borne raids.
From here he has two options : keep dreaming about the mainland and strike at Gaule, which by now will probably be an even bigger mess due to the fragmentation of power, especially if Boniface (or anyone else) was unable to win against Attila. An expedition would be costly and probably be over his capacities. Or, second option, he decides to make is fortress island his new kingdom since, after all, he's already alfway to making it viable and his rather organized and peacefull land would be the sole manufacturer of many products of high value that could be sold to either Spain or the gaulish kingdoms/areas/... His main targets would then be securing the seashores and the Hadrian Wall, with maybe the idea of going north of it to take preventive actions against those pesky northern barbarians. Also of interest to him might be to increase trade with Ireland to develop Britain's market.
 
Hecatee, you've rescued this thread. Thank you.

The idea about a western Byzantine Empire isn't a bad idea BUT it wouldn't be the same. You have to obviously deal with the fact the west wasn't as rich as the east.

If Attila and Boniface faced off, with Boniface being defeated but also doing enough damage to the Huns, what of Aetius.

Personally the timeline I had in mind for him would involve him fortifying a coastal city on the coat, but not necessarily the south coast, perhaps, the coast of south wales or cornwall?

Could Aetius and perhaps 2000 troops rebuild a roman empire with obvious celtic overtones from Brittania, especially with the mainland being fractured up?

And what of refugees choosing to leave Roman lands due to hordes? Would they possibly seek sanctuary in Aetius' britain
 
The Hunnic Empire wouldn't have lasted too long after Attilla's death anyway. It was composed mostly of Germanics and Sarmatian tribes, and it was rarely under a single leadership. Plus, they were dependent on Roman tribute. Once Attilla died, his sons began fighting each other for the leadership of the empire, and this resulted in the Germanic Ostrogoths, Scirians, Gepids, and Rugians into setting out on their own. If Aetius survived Valentinian, and created his own dynasty through his son, he could at least protect Italy from further incursions, although this might just delay the collapse of the Western Empire.
 
To go back to the original POV of him going to Britain... say he does that, Atilla pillages Gaul and Boniface kills him or instead he dies of his own debauchery or whatever after that, then Italy is not as ravaged but Gaul is worse so perhaps you could twist thing so Aetius = Arthur of some sort in Britain, while the eastern Emperor takes Italy as the westernmost part of the Roman Empire.
 
But my main aim is to have Aetius set up in Brittania.
Is there anyway he could get britain as a reward for protecting Rome from Attila, it was virtually useless by now as all roman troops had withdrawn.

Maybe this would be his reward?

also my intention was to have aetius basically be an arthur character minus the excalibur crap.
 

Hecatee

Donor
Hecatee, you've rescued this thread. Thank you.

The idea about a western Byzantine Empire isn't a bad idea BUT it wouldn't be the same. You have to obviously deal with the fact the west wasn't as rich as the east.

If Attila and Boniface faced off, with Boniface being defeated but also doing enough damage to the Huns, what of Aetius.

Personally the timeline I had in mind for him would involve him fortifying a coastal city on the coat, but not necessarily the south coast, perhaps, the coast of south wales or cornwall?

Could Aetius and perhaps 2000 troops rebuild a roman empire with obvious celtic overtones from Brittania, especially with the mainland being fractured up?

And what of refugees choosing to leave Roman lands due to hordes? Would they possibly seek sanctuary in Aetius' britain

Pleased to be of help... Now, to your questions :

- city : I don't think he would go much to the south-west of Britain, for two reasons : 1) the biggest and best organized cities were the ones closest to Gaul, due to trade impact, and Cornwall wasn't all that developped at the time 2) He'd still be interested into continental politics at first, even knowing he can't really affect them : he'd thus stay close to Gaul in order for news to reach him quickly. Also it would allow him to counter more quickly any potential force landing after him and it would put him in a better position to repel the saxon threat.

- Refugees : there will be refugees due to Attila's presence but their direction will change depending on whom between Boniface and Attila wins the final fight. At first the peoples in the way of Attila will not want to go to Britain because Aetius would still be seen as weak after his recent disgrace/loss (I really don't see Britain as a reward at the time) and unable to protect. Also the issue of transport means most peoples won't go there, too afraid to be stuck along the coast of Gaul as if between an anvil and the hunnic hammer. People will mainly move south, and more south east than south west (thus more toward Arles and northern Italy than toward Spain). If Boniface wins a part of the refugees will go back home, but still very few will go to Britain. If, some years in the future, after Aetius has proved himself to be able to settle things down in Britain, a new threat arises, then I could see some migrations toward his lands. But at the time he's too much of a unknown and there are too many risks for peoples to go to him.

- Rebuilding a new empire from the powerbase of Britain : probably not. Britain is both a fortress and a prison which needs to be kept safe, which means having quite a few troops, and also means that in order to get out you have to put enormous ressources in a navy to simply carry your land forces. With the availlable manpower I can't see Aetius doing much more than taking some of the very few existing coastal towns of Gaul to control even more trade, and fortifying them. Why ? Because they will need guarnisons against both sea and land raids and the size of pillaging forces at the time goes easily from 500 to 1000 men a raid, which means that guarnisons on the mainland have to be 250 to 500 men/city : an army of 3000 men could not hope to take and hold many cities. Especially since the germanic kings could easily muster between 10000 and 25000 men for larger invasions or battles. Even if the coming back of Aetius is done with the help of some germanic kings lending him their armies it would not allow him to do that much. He'd be much better off looking toward both Scotland and Ireland.
If you really want him to have an empire on land (and not simply some holdings on the coast) then I don't see him having much more than Britany.
About MNPundit's idea of a better of Italy becoming part of the eastern roman empire earlier and suffering less, I'm not certain it would have happened thus. Sure the barbarians were not so present in Italy at the time but there would still be some of them around and they would be numerous enough to make the take over by Byzantium hard enough, especially as I don't think the ERE had that many availlable forces at the time, nor the cash to support them. And the defense of the peninsula would still be an hard task for them...
 
About MNPundit's idea of a better of Italy becoming part of the eastern roman empire earlier and suffering less, I'm not certain it would have happened thus. Sure the barbarians were not so present in Italy at the time but there would still be some of them around and they would be numerous enough to make the take over by Byzantium hard enough, especially as I don't think the ERE had that many availlable forces at the time, nor the cash to support them. And the defense of the peninsula would still be an hard task for them...
Probably true, and I suppose technically Odoacer ruled as a Byzantine regent or governor or whatever. Actually in 450-457 it's Marcian who was pretty good. If due to Aetius fleeing or whatnot, Marcian manages to avoid his death by gangrene (and Atilla still dies around OTL time) he might have a chance to establish something in south Italy while leaving the north to the barbarians in some sort of agreement.

I think the two most likely options to get what the OP want are Aetius flees to Britain pre-Attila, maybe with a few refugees, decides to stay in Britain and build there where the H-brothers are never invited or... Aetius slays Valentinian, flees to Britain and rallies the Romano-Britains to defeat the H-brother's attacks, killing Vortigern and becoming king so that his son or grandson becomes King Arthur, Mons Badonicus etc. etc.

I agree with you, the idea of taking the continent back from Fortress Britain is unpossible.

ED: Is it Friday yet? Maybe it's time to update RoS.
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
One thing why do the Roman commanders always set up a state in Britain of all places on AH.com, they couldn't leave the place fast enough in OTL, and it suffered one of the most spectacularly complete collapses in former Roman territories. These things happens for good reasons.
 
One thing why do the Roman commanders always set up a state in Britain of all places on AH.com, they couldn't leave the place fast enough in OTL, and it suffered one of the most spectacularly complete collapses in former Roman territories. These things happens for good reasons.

Because there's lots of British members, or others who have a hard on for all things British?
 
It's island status enables a "fortress Britain" mentality. That and this forum has rampant British wank.
 
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