WI: Humanity evolved to Pangea

Not sure what kind of situation needs to arise here, but let's say that humanity evolves a lot earlier in History.

I'm thinking dinosaurs would be wiped out in whatever POD allowed this, but if not that's fine too.

How would humanity develop?

pangea[1].gif
 
This is impossible.


well that is a detailed well thought out answer.
well i do agree it is very unlikely, with a POD far back enough i am sure something vaguely resembling humans could evolve. especially if dinos died off much ealier or pangea took longer to break up.
 
Yes, we know its impossible. It's alternate history. Let's try not to be pricks.

I suppose that this should be in Alien Space Bats, prefaced with something like "Suppose Alien Space Bats came along and arranged for humans to evolve in Pangea, using time travel or time information sifting to arrange that the humans evolved to be what we are now or as close as you could get with the mammal like reptile stock available."


My thoughts:

Agriculture is probably slower starting off, definitely a different repertoire of domesticated plants. No fruits or flowering plants during this period. No grasses or grains. So probably roots, tubers, leaves etc., adjusted for edibility.

I'm not sure if trees or hard woods have evolved by this time. Probably not. So there may be issues for tool making, construction, and firewood fuel.

I suspect a very long and protracted hunter gatherer stage, lots and lots of populations moving back. Very likely little racial differentiation. Humanity is mostly black or brown, with ethnic groups here and there and lots of intermediates, but no real races. Extinction of just about all the megafauna eventually. Surviving animals will be very fast breeding.

Agriculture when it hits will spread quickly. As will copper, iron and bronze, either through trading networks or simple spread of the technology.

However, humans will peek out. Reason - lack of fossil fuels, lack of oil and coal. No industrial revolution per se.

The steam engine etc. may evolve, and may even become widespread, but for the most part, it'll be a specialized toy. But the timeline for that sort of thing will be slower and it'll aways be small scale. The sorts of mass production that were a hallmark of the industrial age, unlikely.
No likely domesticated animals - unless ASB's evolve horses and cattle along with humans, or unless there are local species that can be adapted. Unlikely.

So no great Mongol type empires, no cavalry, no chariot warfare, no beast-assisted agriculture, etc. etc.

Empires and states will be dictated by foot traffic and social organization.
 
A naturally occurring pseudohominid in the Pangean era. Remotely possible, but there are so many intangibles, that its going to be some pretty arbitrary choices to get there from existing stock. I'd say some sort of marshland mammal like reptile, with tidal mollusks substituting for frugivore lifestyle.
 
Yes, we know its impossible. It's alternate history. Let's try not to be pricks.

I was not being a prick. I did not flame anyone, did not degrade anyone. All I did was say that it is impossible, which it is.

However I thought he was asking was POD was required, as well as how humanity would develop. Although now I re-read it and realized he's just asking about how humanity would develop. Nonetheless, this would probably belong in the ASB forum.
 

Typo

Banned
This is pretty much impossible to predict.

If this TL's ecology produces little/no domestic animal for instance, then it is unlikely Humans will ever evolve past simple tribal organizations.

This TL's weather patterns, geography etc will complicate matters still more until the point where Humans society (if it forms) will be completely and utterly unimaginable to us. Humans might, for instance, become predominantly nomadic due to the lack of viable agriculture in this environment.

Of course Humans will not evolve in the same way, after all, if the average temperature is 10-15 degrees hotter in this world, then Humans if they exist will adapt.

This is pretty much the same as trying to predict how an alien society would evolve given XYZ condition.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
As Dvaldron says the biggest problem will be the lack of cereal, nuts and fruits, so humanity will likely live heavily of roots, fungus and leaves. While I disagree about domestic animals, hens, turkeys and geese aren't known for their big brain in OTL, there will be a lack of animal which can be easily trained. So in brute terms we will likely see cultures which can best be compared to the Polynesians, Andeans and Mesoamerican, culture whom only domesticate small animal (if we ignores dogs and llamas) and live of either extremely modified (like mais*) or root plants and fungus. Maybe we will also see some sea plant being domesticated like seaweed.
A problem will be that Pangea will be dominated by giant deserts, so humans will be limit to the edges of the contignent and river valleys in the deserts.

Of course these thing will only matter if humans has been planted there, if a mammalian hominid through some impossible process evolve on it own, the biosphere are going to be radical different with at very least a lot pseudo-primate species dominating a lot of niches.

*Through I have a hard time seing ferns being modified enough to become edible.
 
*Through I have a hard time seing ferns being modified enough to become edible.

Actually, fiddleheads, where are the sprouts of young ferns are a maritime delicacy in Canada. I believe that the Maori of New Zealand also domesticated a fern, but don't quote me on that.

When I referred to lack of domesticated animals, I was indeed referring to lack of large trainable domestics for use in riding, pulling carts, carrying loads, etc. For transportation, you could probably skip around that by shipping boats, rafts and barges up the river ways, and by building canals. But that means that inland areas are going to be tough and agriculture is going to be labour intensive.

Actually, I suppose there's some remote chance that some of the megafauna may be adapted, but I still see that as unlikely.

I'd forgotten about the whole 'giant deserts' shtick. We might actually see a proliferation of human cultures evolving semi-isolated in the wet areas, and a desert or semi-desert adapted culture inhabiting the interior. Maybe you would get some version of Mongols after all.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Could something with the brains of a turkey of chicken be used as a ridding animal or a draft animal?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Could something with the brains of a turkey of chicken be used as a ridding animal or a draft animal?

While I'm not sure, I would say no, you would have too much trouble dealing with something so stupid if it was a size where it would be useful. Through you may be able to pin them up.
 
LateTriassicGlobal.jpg


For the sake of topography and knowing where the deserts are, let's say it's this Pangea. And let's put ProtoMan in the green area on the Proto-Atlantic (currently mountains with some inland seas). The question is what the wildlife's like. If we keep to where this map's from (Triassic), and somehow put man and all his stone tools in there (while we're using ASB), let's use Late Triassic Dinosaurs and other Fauna. So, our questions are Riding Animal, Draft Animal, and Pork-Chicken (serving the role of both Pork and Chicken, in that it's a large animal to slaughter and eat, and lays eggs). For Riding, I suggest Dilophosaurus. He seems big enough to carry a human around. Maybe they can be domesticated. But Dicynodonts look good all around. Some were small enough to serve as food animals, while others were Ox-Sized for draft animals and riding. And they're herbivores, so they'll be easier to domesticate than the carnivorous Dilophosaurus. But maybe in the hypothetical cultures, taming a Dilophosaurus is a rite-of-passage or a status symbol.

The deserts on this world don't seem to be much worse than IOTL. Whatever land we lose from the deserts we stand to gain back from Antarctica and a warmer Arctic.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Actually, fiddleheads, where are the sprouts of young ferns are a maritime delicacy in Canada. I believe that the Maori of New Zealand also domesticated a fern, but don't quote me on that.

Okay so we may see some kind of salats from those.

When I referred to lack of domesticated animals, I was indeed referring to lack of large trainable domestics for use in riding, pulling carts, carrying loads, etc. For transportation, you could probably skip around that by shipping boats, rafts and barges up the river ways, and by building canals. But that means that inland areas are going to be tough and agriculture is going to be labour intensive.

On the other hand agriculture needed animals because of the plough, but in a non cereal and rice agriculture, that's aren't necessary, and we have lot of example of farming which didn't need plough. Especially because rootplants are likely to be the important source of vegetables.
While all the early civilisation existed near rivers, and for for civilisation along desert rivers it isn't a big lose.
Actually, I suppose there's some remote chance that some of the megafauna may be adapted, but I still see that as unlikely.

I agree, to little brain.

I'd forgotten about the whole 'giant deserts' shtick. We might actually see a proliferation of human cultures evolving semi-isolated in the wet areas, and a desert or semi-desert adapted culture inhabiting the interior. Maybe you would get some version of Mongols after all.

Doubt the last thing, without a animal for transportation the plains are going to look like Americas Great Plain before the horse came along. The Mongols big deal was mobility without that they just a bunch of hunter-gartherers.
 
You might be able to manipulate large domestics with very simple behavioural wiring. Think Falcons. They're not truly domesticated per se (I don't think). But you can manipulate the behaviour by hooding them. They don't fly or act out when hooded. So maybe, if you had a large animal, you could use eyeflaps and stuff to manipulate basic responses.

You wouldn't get something as sophisticated as a horse. But you could get something that carries a load or pulls a wagon to where you want.
 

Valdemar II

Banned


Just curious, would you say this guy's brain is large enough for domestication (he's roughly the size of a cow)?

Brain size no (he would likely make a chicken look smart) and he and his entire genus would be lousy steeds BTW, he walk like a lizard, with the legs spread to the sides rather than under him, which mean that he's likely has little endurance and would have been slow.

But the slowness would likely mean that he would be relative easy to keep in captivity. So he may be domesticated but it would be a much longer process. I imagine it start up with a few human finding a small nest and decide to keep them around when they become big to keep under control they was slaughter for food, over a few hundred years they would likely begin to keep them long enough to breed, at that point the domestication would slowly happen, through it would likely be much more a process of limiting agressivity and flight instincts making them easy to keep around. Likely we would see a reduction in size too.
 
Humans evolve, but doesn't that require the rest of the primate species evolve as well? So not only will this pangea have humans but also all the primates, and probably some new ones too.

Just putting some ideas out there but it seems to me that if there are extremely primitive species like the one polish eagle posted then some kind of Primate that grazes with multiple stomach chambers (like the Francois' Langur), moves faster (like the Patas monkey), and has better smarter pack instincts like all the Primates. So if Primates as an order are going against what the Triassic has to offer it's going to be a no contest victory for Primates.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Humans evolve, but doesn't that require the rest of the primate species evolve as well? So not only will this pangea have humans but also all the primates, and probably some new ones too.

Just putting some ideas out there but it seems to me that if there are extremely primitive species like the one polish eagle posted then some kind of Primate that grazes with multiple stomach chambers (like the Francois' Langur), moves faster (like the Patas monkey), and has better smarter pack instincts like all the Primates. So if Primates as an order are going against what the Triassic has to offer it's going to be a no contest victory for Primates.

One the other hand these creature are also a end process of several millions year of adaption to a single niche, some of them may have multible stomachs, it should remembered that even through prmates has the brain size benefit and more evolve social structures, these others creature have adapted to niches for million of years that primates has just begun to adapt to, but in the long term these pseudo-primates are likely to outcompete almost everything.
 
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