WI: HRE supports a broader Viking exploration of North America

Given an alternate scenario where a more powerful Carolingian/HRE entity is more involved in the Danish/Norwegians affaires of the 10th-11th centuries (maybe through dynastic ties), is it possible that the Imperial court would be aware of the Viking explorations in Greenland/Vinland and might decide to support them with money/men or launching their own exploration projects?

Which would be the consequences of boosting North American exploration by an European continental power (assuming is wealthy enough for such purposes)?
 
At first, the only commodity that could justify that would be fur. Could Danish or Norse merchants turn a profit selling beaver pelts in the HRE?
 
There's no reason for such a thing. The Carolingian Empire or HRE had barbarians on their front doors already. Firstly, the vikings themselves. Secondly, the Ostsiedlund was the German people colonizing to their east. People aren't going to think to go across the sea for land when they can fight someone over this land fifty miles away.

The most I could see is them sponsoring a few expeditions to see if their were any good trading partners that way. The Mississippian culture might function as a trade partner, but probably not enough to justify the distances. Unless they get to the Mesoamerican cultures with gold, I don't see much happening from it besides a bit more awareness of America. You might actually delay Columbus. If everyone knew there was a giant landmass to the west, the idea that you might reach the valuable far east by going west would likely never form.
 
The most I could see is them sponsoring a few expeditions to see if their were any good trading partners that way. The Mississippian culture might function as a trade partner, but probably not enough to justify the distances. Unless they get to the Mesoamerican cultures with gold, I don't see much happening from it besides a bit more awareness of America. You might actually delay Columbus. If everyone knew there was a giant landmass to the west, the idea that you might reach the valuable far east by going west would likely never form.

It could eventually happen if the exploration would have been more organized, planned and curious about the available resources in the warmer south, but for some reason the Vikings did not want to venture south of Chesapeake Bay IOTL.
 
The economic situation was not at all the same as what drove the Age of Exploration to begin. Europe was bleeding gold and silver to the far east during the Great Bullion famine. Its partly what drove Portugal to explore down the coast of Africa because they knew that there was gold there due to the sub-Saharan trade routes. Even then with state sponsorship and more efficient caravels, just going to sub-Saharan Africa took decades for the Portugese. Spain sought for a shorter route to the spice trade, and then Columbus lied about vast amounts of gold in the New World (and was lucky enough to be right). These gave drive to the Spanish and Portugese to sponsor these sorts of projects, and even early English and French settlements in the New World were focused on finding gold or silver.

There is no such situation in the 11th century. The European powers will still exploring eastern Europe, were still imposing law on 'their' land, and gradually developing. You hadn't yet reached the times when all of Europe was fighting over strips of land along their borders, although they still did that. They were still looking inward in the European theater rather than taking a more global view.

Technology didn't help. Knarrs weren't the best ships for cargo or travel. Better than most of the time, yes, but not quite the equal of caravels or carracks. It could take weeks just to go from Iceland to Greenland, and likely just as long to reach Vinland. So that's like a month and a half or two months from Iceland to the northernmost part of Vinland. Add in a month to reach Iceland from Norway or Germany, and another to reach south of Nova Scotia or start up the St Lawrence River, and its already a major voyage. Knarrs weren't good enough to skip from Newfoundland to Ireland or Norway. The currents also meant they needed to take this northern route. Then you have the fact that exploring new lands is far more difficult than traveling routes you are already aware of. Some estimate that even viking ships could only travel between one and two knots in unfamiliar water, compared to three to six or even more when they knew the currents and reefs. The knarr also wouldn't have sufficient supplies to work for two or three months independently. They'd need to hug the coast while traveling slowly due to unfamiliar currents and underwater landscapes, and also stop occasionally for fresh water and supplies. They'd have no settlements of their own people to stop at to rest and resupply, and they can't talk to the natives. The vikings stopped exploring when it simply wasn't worth it anymore. Hell, I'm pretty sure some of the difficulties of the Vinland settlements was that some of the men were so focused on exploration they outright forgot to properly provision themselves for winter. So it wasn't a lack of will. It simply wasn't realistic with what they had available. They didn't have the supplies to support a significant portion of their men to be exploring rather than working, and they could only explore so far from their settlements in the first place.

So you'd need the sort of explorers that appeared in the Age of Exploration that were financed richly by monarchs to explore and claim lands, and more settlements to resupply and or have the explorers using ships that can carry more supplies and thus can explore further before needing to resupply. Except as noted, the monarchs of this time have different things on their minds. The kings of Norway are more likely to encourage settlement of Vinland through believing it could eventually turn into another Iceland than filling up a map. Norway also didn't have the money to waste on 'frivolous' activities. They'd be spending their resources trying to keep their vassals in line and securing their rule. Really, I'd think the Grand Banks being found and valued enough to secure a few settlements in the region to be more likely than any king deciding to splurge money financing a few ships to explore the coast of a land they'll likely never see. However the Scandinavian countries still had plenty of fishing spots that were more accessible that were still sufficient at the time.
 
The economic situation was not at all the same as what drove the Age of Exploration to begin... However the Scandinavian countries still had plenty of fishing spots that were more accessible that were still sufficient at the time.

I really enjoyed your detailed explanation. Thanks! :)

I agree on 90% of what you wrote in your post. It is pretty clear that the HRE would not start such projects in their own, because it was focused on other issues and it is obvious that then there was no need or aim to engage in explorations such far from homeland.

However, once this exploration is taking shape due to the personal interests of some lineages of Vikings as it happened IOTL, we might not rule out that external powers could have eventually interested in participating or financing. How? Let's see:

IOTL the main powers in Christian Europe (HRE, England, France...) did not want to intervene in the issues of the Vikings, because they were their enemies and they were mostly seen as barbarians, even when they embraced the Christian faith. However, this could have changed if Denmark (and later Norway) would have been included in some way into the HRE or closely tied to.

We have discussed in other threads what could happen if a strong HRE (still including France), instead on focusing on the East, would have included Denmark (maybe with the British Danelaw), switching the focus of expansion from Eastern Europe to the North Sea. Certainly an acceleration on assimilating the Norse into the continental culture, but the Vikings would have endured in the Northernmost areas like Iceland. However, they would not have been seen anymore as a threat or wild barbarians.

At this point, the HRE could have been more interested (at least, surely more informed about) in the activities of the Viking explorers in Greenland/Vinland. They could have helped the explorers to go beyond, better supplied etc.
 
Given an alternate scenario where a more powerful Carolingian/HRE entity is more involved in the Danish/Norwegians affaires of the 10th-11th centuries (maybe through dynastic ties), is it possible that the Imperial court would be aware of the Viking explorations in Greenland/Vinland and might decide to support them with money/men or launching their own exploration projects?

Which would be the consequences of boosting North American exploration by an European continental power (assuming is wealthy enough for such purposes)?
If the Vikings Christianize earlier, maybe the Catholic Church would sponsor the establishment of a monastery in Newfoundland. I don't think the HRE, which had its own matters to deal with and little if anything to gain from such a venture, would be interested in throwing any gold at the sea-barbarians.
 
Just a glorious map to reflect the idea:

Euro_1250 (FILEminimizer).PNG
 
Harald Hardada is more successful, an also ends up sponsoring a couple of villages in Vinland to send him "wine grown at the end of the Earth", served by Skraelig slaves at his court, as a prestige project.
 
Just a glorious map to reflect the idea:

View attachment 363532
Haha. I think the more difficult project to achieve such map borders would be explaining how the Carolingian Empire doesn't just not self destruct, but also conquers much of Iberia, the British Isles, the western Slavs, the Baltic coast, and Scandinavia. That's arguably far more difficult than successfully colonizing Vinland.:openedeyewink:
 
Haha. I think the more difficult project to achieve such map borders would be explaining how the Carolingian Empire doesn't just not self destruct, but also conquers much of Iberia, the British Isles, the western Slavs, the Baltic coast, and Scandinavia. That's arguably far more difficult than successfully colonizing Vinland.:openedeyewink:

Haha, I admit this hyper-Carolingia would happen only once in a million possible TL.

However, the key is, as you say, not self destruction. Main enemies of the Franks were...other factions of Franks. If any PoD would have guaranteed a more unified Empire more focused on thriving rather on familiar disputes over land, the rest would be probably given: a strong Empire could have accelerated Reconquista in Spain and control the Christian land, accelerate expansion to the East, control Scandinavia-British Isles...
 
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