The Ottonians were known to intermarry with the Byzantines, and Otto III, who was raised by his Greek mother, was betrothed to the Byzantine princess Zoe, who reigned as Byzantine Empress OTL. Would children born from this union bring the two empires together, perhaps with one brother ruling the Byzantine Empire and the other ruling the Holy Roman Empire? What would be the implications of one dynasty ruling over both empires, as well as what I'd assume would be a resultant legitimization of the HRE in the eyes of the Byzantines? How would this affect culture down the line, and would the two emperors aid each other in wars, against rebellions or invasions, i.e. the Turks?
WI: HRE Seen as Resurrected WRE?
- Thread starter Tripledot
- Start date
I doubt a half-German prince would be acceptable as an emperor for the Byzantines; if Otto does marry Zoe, it just means Zoe is never empress. Byzantine succession was hardly a nice, smooth path like in Crusader Kings.
Otto and Zoe have plenty of time to sire a male (three-fourths Greek) heir by the time Zoe's father dies OTL. I'm just positing a best-case scenario that would lead to one son being fostered and raised as a Greek and the other as a German (perhaps even a Latin-speaking "Roman" given Otto III's Romanophilia). If the first son is born around the time of Zoe and Otto's arranged marriage, he would be of age and could potentially be installed as Emperor, and though he'd probably face some opposition he'd have the strongest claim as Basil II and Constantine VIII had no other male heirs.
As for changes in politics and religion, I wonder what would become of the Pope. Otto had conflicts with him OTL, and his ambition to place the HRE's capital in Rome certainly put him at odds with him. With the recognition of the ERE, I wonder whether future Holy Roman Emperors would eventually demote to Pope to simply being the Patriarch of Rome- maybe leading to a united (Chalcedonian) Christianity? Then again, perhaps the Great Schism would happen anyway, between feuding HRE and Byzantine Emperors, excommunicating each other through their respective Patriarchs.
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1. Otto III was himself the son of a Byzantine princess, and that did little to bring the empires together apart from sustaining a peace under which the Germans stopped attacking Byzantine Italy. Why would a son of Otto III and Zoe be any different?
2. The Byzantine emperors already did see the HRE as "legitimate." They reserved the formation "Emperor of the Romans" for themselves, but since the 9th century the emperors in Constantinople had little trouble recognizing the Frankish/German kings as emperors too (just not emperors of the Romans). You don't send an imperial daughter to marry into the ruling family of a state you see as illegitimate.
3. Byzantine succession was not strongly hereditary; to win the throne you had to actually impose yourself upon it, and in the event of a succession crisis in Constantinople it's almost certain that a Byzantine general or other strongman is going to seat himself in the city before word of the crisis can even reach the west. If a son of Otto III wants to win the throne he's going to have to do it the old fashioned way, by actually invading and conquering the empire, and considering that Otto III couldn't even manage to keep control of Rome I don't see that as a very likely military feat. "Strongest claim" is meaningless compared to "strongest army" and "strongest support by the native elites."
4. The Germans and Byzantines really have no ability to aid one another in each others' home territories. The best possible outcome of a closer alignment between the HRE and the Byzantines at this time would be if they can cooperatively prevent the Norman conquest of southern Italy, in which case the Byzantines are spared from a lot of 11th century headaches and are going to be in a significantly improved position by the time the Turks roll around (though I can't say whether it will make any difference).
5. The Germans never much cared for the habit of the Ottonians to decide they were really "Romans" and rule from Rome. Otto III didn't live long enough for this to be a problem, but if this becomes a long-term thing, Otto III is probably going to face some serious pushback from the Germans back home, and his theoretical son is going to have the same problem. If the German emperor decides to invade and force himself upon Constantinople, I have my doubts about whether the German nobles are going to support him. If he goes anyway they might just decide to put a "real German" on the throne instead (like the historical Emperor Henry II).
6. Let's assume this scenario actually works and a Hellenized Ottonian is on the throne of Constantinople. What of it? Brothers fight each other all the time, historically speaking, and cousins even more so - there's no reason to assume that there would be a permanent or even long-term alignment between the two empires any more than there was IOTL. Aside from some sparring over southern Italy (which becomes irrelevant after the Norman conquest), they are too far removed from one another to have many common interests or foes (again, apart from the Normans).
7. The division of Christendom into Latin and Greek spheres was already an accomplished fact at this time, even if it wasn't made "official" until 1054 or so (and even that was viewed as a relatively minor event at the time). I doubt the mere fact that they guy on the throne in Constantinople has Ottonian blood would have much appreciable effect on this situation.
2. The Byzantine emperors already did see the HRE as "legitimate." They reserved the formation "Emperor of the Romans" for themselves, but since the 9th century the emperors in Constantinople had little trouble recognizing the Frankish/German kings as emperors too (just not emperors of the Romans). You don't send an imperial daughter to marry into the ruling family of a state you see as illegitimate.
3. Byzantine succession was not strongly hereditary; to win the throne you had to actually impose yourself upon it, and in the event of a succession crisis in Constantinople it's almost certain that a Byzantine general or other strongman is going to seat himself in the city before word of the crisis can even reach the west. If a son of Otto III wants to win the throne he's going to have to do it the old fashioned way, by actually invading and conquering the empire, and considering that Otto III couldn't even manage to keep control of Rome I don't see that as a very likely military feat. "Strongest claim" is meaningless compared to "strongest army" and "strongest support by the native elites."
4. The Germans and Byzantines really have no ability to aid one another in each others' home territories. The best possible outcome of a closer alignment between the HRE and the Byzantines at this time would be if they can cooperatively prevent the Norman conquest of southern Italy, in which case the Byzantines are spared from a lot of 11th century headaches and are going to be in a significantly improved position by the time the Turks roll around (though I can't say whether it will make any difference).
5. The Germans never much cared for the habit of the Ottonians to decide they were really "Romans" and rule from Rome. Otto III didn't live long enough for this to be a problem, but if this becomes a long-term thing, Otto III is probably going to face some serious pushback from the Germans back home, and his theoretical son is going to have the same problem. If the German emperor decides to invade and force himself upon Constantinople, I have my doubts about whether the German nobles are going to support him. If he goes anyway they might just decide to put a "real German" on the throne instead (like the historical Emperor Henry II).
6. Let's assume this scenario actually works and a Hellenized Ottonian is on the throne of Constantinople. What of it? Brothers fight each other all the time, historically speaking, and cousins even more so - there's no reason to assume that there would be a permanent or even long-term alignment between the two empires any more than there was IOTL. Aside from some sparring over southern Italy (which becomes irrelevant after the Norman conquest), they are too far removed from one another to have many common interests or foes (again, apart from the Normans).
7. The division of Christendom into Latin and Greek spheres was already an accomplished fact at this time, even if it wasn't made "official" until 1054 or so (and even that was viewed as a relatively minor event at the time). I doubt the mere fact that they guy on the throne in Constantinople has Ottonian blood would have much appreciable effect on this situation.
Well they kind of were, not only in the own and German Historiography, but formally and ceremonially the Emperor was the Protector of the Pope and the Emperor of the Roman Latin West. In the west, certainly in the early period the Emperor meant Roman Emperor (or at least Emperor ruling over the (western) Roman Empire).
I can't see the Ottonians end up as Emperors of the Eastern Roman Empire though, in fact neglecting the German (Saxon and Frankish) roots wouldn't be too wise, since that was their powerbase.
I can't see the Ottonians end up as Emperors of the Eastern Roman Empire though, in fact neglecting the German (Saxon and Frankish) roots wouldn't be too wise, since that was their powerbase.
That's what Otto III attempted to do, and what Frederick II successfully did (until he died). Interestingly, Otto III was referred to as the mirabilis mundi and Frederick was the stupor mundi- both meaning "Wonder of the World."
Not to mention that Frederick neglected his German powerbase way too much, which turned out to belong to the one of series of negative effects on central authority in the Empire.
This is the essential problem; a Holy Roman Emperor cannot really control Germany AND Italy very directly at all, and if Italy is abandoned, then the Roman legacy is that much harder to assert.
Frederick was a Salian only by name... He was much more an Hauteville and he was raised as King of Sicily not as future Holy Roman Emperor after his father's death.
Right... We were talking about the Salian inheritance and I used Salian instradare of Staufer or German....