What if Emperor Matthias and Anna of Tyrol have a son (Maximilian, b. 1612)? Max would be just 7 at the time of father's death. Would Matthias secure election of his son at least in Bohemia and Hungary? What about Imperial election? While Bohemia and Hungary had kids elected as kings before (like Matthias' great-uncle Louis II) it wasn't custom in HRE. OTOH if Max is elected as King of Bohemia then he'd be elector himself. What is going to happen in 1619 in such circumstances?
WI: HRE Matthias has a son
- Thread starter Jan Olbracht
- Start date
Matthias' next brother becomes interim emperor in 1619, in the hope that he survices until Maximilian is old enough. So we might see Emperor Albrecht III or Maximilian III TTL
I need to find out more about the Regency system in Austria.
But something very interesting would be if more tolerant people took over the affairs of Austria.
For example Melchior Klesl was a pacifist and during the reign of Matthias tried to establish religious tolerance in the Habsburg lands. In 1618 he was dismissed by Ferdinand II, which partly led to the Thirty Years' War.
But something very interesting would be if more tolerant people took over the affairs of Austria.
For example Melchior Klesl was a pacifist and during the reign of Matthias tried to establish religious tolerance in the Habsburg lands. In 1618 he was dismissed by Ferdinand II, which partly led to the Thirty Years' War.
Electing someone under 18 as Holy Roman Emperor was forbidden. Some strong rulers were able to bend the rules and have their still underage son elected as King of the Romans, but nothing more (and still the King of the Romans would be unable to become Emperor before the 18 years, meaning who the Holy Roman Empire would have an interregnum if the Emperor died while his son and ducessero was still under 18). I guess Maximilian or Albrecht would become regent of Austria, Hungary and Bohemia and elected as Holy Roman Emperor. The younger Maximilian will be likely elected as King of the Romans one/two years later
Would not be Ferdinand the regent, by law, as the senior member of the House? Ditto for the imperial election; Or Hungary and Bohemia might ask for different regents if not even dofferent monarchs; Or Matthias could design a different regent at least in Bohemia and put Ferdinand out of the games and that would help matters in Bohemia. The Regent of Bohemia would cast the electoral vote at the Imperial election in the name of Young Maximillian; Whilethe regent of Austria must be next Male in line Bohemia is a different matter; Hungary too.
OTL Ferdinand II was from a younger branch of the family. Archduke Maximilian would be the next-in-line but in OTL he died some months before his brother Matthias. Albert, the youngest surviving (well in truth that was Wenceslaus, who died at 17 years old) son of Maximilian II, is the next in line and he lived two years and some months more than Matthias so he would be the regent and the Emperor. If he lived longer or was able to get young Maximilian elected as King of the Romans before dying then we are set: interregnum in the Holy Roman Empire, waiting for the majority of the King of the Romans, and regency in the other lands
Why should Albert act differently then in HL thought? I would see it as a big stretch if the birth of Maximillian would make his uncles live more; He abdicated to Ferdinand in HL Why should he not in this timeline? I see Ferdinand II still becoming Emperor in this TL. If Albert dors not abdicate, in my hopinion he will still die before his Nephew is 18, and so i don't think wecan avoid Ferdinand II on the throne, but he can be less powerfull then in HL.
Because in OTL Albert renounced because he had NO heir and Ferdinand would be eventually King. ATL there is no need for that. And if young Maximilian was already elected as King of the Romans, OTL Ferdinand II would NOT get the Imperial Crown
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-with-his-wife-30-years-war-postponed.311350/
Found an old thread of mine with this very same PoD (though it was discussed as a sub-PoD for alt-Bourbons TL which ended up to be never written).
TLDR - due to peculiar specifics of Imperial Vicars institute (and the fact that these Vicars in 1616 would be Electors of Palatinate and Saxony), we can see Imperial throne and the kinghood of Bohemia and Hungary being separated for a while for the first time since Charles V.
Found an old thread of mine with this very same PoD (though it was discussed as a sub-PoD for alt-Bourbons TL which ended up to be never written).
TLDR - due to peculiar specifics of Imperial Vicars institute (and the fact that these Vicars in 1616 would be Electors of Palatinate and Saxony), we can see Imperial throne and the kinghood of Bohemia and Hungary being separated for a while for the first time since Charles V.
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A King of the Romans of 7 or 9 years old is unlikely, I think; Ferdinand III son , in a particular situation, was elected at 13; I still see Ferdinand II being elected.
I'm not sure Klesl was a pacifist per se, more that he was just pragmatic especially compared to Maximilian III and Ferdinand II (for whom Max served as regent). I think Klesl also tended to approach conflicts from a political rather than religious perspective (ironic considering he was a bishop). He was very concerned with preventing the various Austrian Estates from allying with one and other in order to extract more concessions from Matthias. Though I agree if his rule continued, say as a regent for Matthias' son in Upper and Lower Austria, the situation would be quite different.
I assume that Klesl would be able to secure Matthias's son's election in Bohemia and Hungary at the cost of entrenching the Letter of Majesty and privileges won by their respective estates over the last few decades. But I doubt they'd let Klesl have any role in either regency so he'd probably be limited to some kind of governing role in Austria.
Yeah, that's a big problem. I kind of agree that Albert might agree to election when Matthias dies in order to serve as a placeholder but that only postpones the problem a few years and Albert would probably realize that. Leopold V might try and put himself forward as the next placeholder since he'd tried previously to get Rudolf to name him as heir. On the other hand he was on such bad terms with Matthias as a result of that episode that the circle around Matthias' son isn't likely to look favorably upon his candidacy. Perhaps the rest of the family buys off Leopold with the Tyrol (which he got anyways IOTL).
I think its worth considering who would essentially have custody over Matthias' son. The boy would only be seven upon his father's death and his mother is presumably dead too so he has no family except his uncle and his cousins. Presumably Matthias would make provisions for him in his will but there's no guarantee that it would be followed. He'll likely have been elected in Bohemia and Hungary but it would be too risky to have him reside in either with their estates having so much power. I think that the other Habsburgs would equally object to him becoming Klesl's defacto ward in Vienna even if Matthias named him the boy's guardian. So it's entirely possible that he spends the next few years either in Brussels with his Uncle Emperor Albert or in Graz with his cousin Ferdinand. If the latter then Ferdinand is well positioned to be elected as the next Emperor but he'd be hard pressed to maintain the Imperial court with only the resources of Inner Austria.
When I speak of Klesl as a pacifist it was in the context of the Bohemian revolt. Ferdinand II removed Klesl from power for attempting to negotiate with the rebellious Protestant nobility. In a different context he could have continued to favor dialogue over confrontation (but it depends on the circumstances).
After that I have to be honest, this is the only thing I know about Klesl at the moment.
Uhmmm...you never mentioned Anna. She survived the birth or died in childbirth?
Going with the first, she could assume a regency as Empress, if Matthias puts things into motion to have his brothers support her and get the protestant princes on his side. Having Ferdinand as a possible successor might give him some leeway and if he offers some concessions he might get it done.
If she dies, Matthias has the chance for a new strategic marriage...
Going with the first, she could assume a regency as Empress, if Matthias puts things into motion to have his brothers support her and get the protestant princes on his side. Having Ferdinand as a possible successor might give him some leeway and if he offers some concessions he might get it done.
If she dies, Matthias has the chance for a new strategic marriage...
I was just assuming that she would die, not necessarily in childbirth but at least before Matthias as in OTL. Unless you get a completely different ATL Anna who is just a healthier and thus long lived person. I hadn't thought about her dying in childbirth and Matthias remarrying. It's an interesting possibility.
The thing is, with her surviving, she is the sole legitimate heir of Anna of Hungary´s second son, while Ferdinand is only from the third son, so Anna has enough political clout on her own to act as regent for her son(who represents the claim of the first son) in Bohemia and to a lesser degree in Hungary, and there had been dowanger queens in both kingdoms
That's true but I don't think Anna ever demonstrated much political acumen OTL and trying to manage regencies in Bohemia, Hungary and Austria will be extremely difficult. On the other hand effective or not if she lives she is the obvious candidate. I was assuming her death in having her son raised by Albert or Ferdinand. Though it still doesn't solve the issue of the Imperial election.
Albert will be Emperor. If he managed to will live longer than OTL (at least another couple of years) and get Maximilian elected as King of the Romans around 10 years old, then the Empire will have some years of interregnum waiting for the “coming of age“ of the young Emperor. If Anna also lived, Ferdinand will be kept totally out of power
The problem with that as Valena pointed out is that if an underage King of the Romans becomes Emperor on Albert's death then the Empire would be ruled by the Imperial Vicars, the Elector Palatine in the south and the Elector of Saxony in the north until the boy comes of age. The Habsburgs would know this. So I think there's a decent chance Ferdinand would object to plans to have Matthias' son elected during Albert's reign. There is already a lot of bad blood between the different branches of the family. Then if conservative Catholic Ferdinand felt that Anna/Klesl/whomever was going too soft on the Protestants in Bohemia and Hungary or even Lower Austria he might look at the prospect of an HRE run by protestant Vicars as a bridge too far.
Albert would have a lot on his plate trying to balance pretty fractious Imperial politics not to mention the looming expiration of the Twelve Years Truce. Without a shrewd operator representing young Max's interests -and I don't think Anna could handle that- and with Max potential in Vienna or Prague and Albert in Brussels then there may not be a lot of pressure on Albert to favor Matthias’ line given the serious obstacles it presents. So I could see a scenario where he agrees to Ferdinand’s election as his successor in order to keep the peace on the Catholic side.
Albert would have a lot on his plate trying to balance pretty fractious Imperial politics not to mention the looming expiration of the Twelve Years Truce. Without a shrewd operator representing young Max's interests -and I don't think Anna could handle that- and with Max potential in Vienna or Prague and Albert in Brussels then there may not be a lot of pressure on Albert to favor Matthias’ line given the serious obstacles it presents. So I could see a scenario where he agrees to Ferdinand’s election as his successor in order to keep the peace on the Catholic side.
Ferdinand has NO holding important enough to grant him the Imperial Crown and Maximilian, simply existing, change a lot of things as all the negotiations and agreements between Spain and Austria (related to the Austrian succession) are butterflied as neither Philip III or Ferdinand can play the “next-in-line””closest heir“ card during Matthias reign. The BEST who Ferdinand can do is preventing Albert from pushing the election of young Maximilian as Emperor, but doing that the Habsburgs would risk to lose the Imperial Crown if Albert die before Maximilian is 18.