WI: Hood sisters built as 8x18 inch naval guns

Thomas1195

Banned
It doesn't matter why the ships were designed as far as the US was concerned , if GB is building ships with 18" guns the US will do so as well. It isn't going to let itself get outgunned and the US has much more money. Despite Japanese complaining it limited the US more than anyone else. The Japanese were building ships at almost top speed even within those limits the US was not. It had more money than anyone. Having the same limits for the USN and the RN hurt the USN more than the RN. The US could simply outspend the UK + Japan with ease.
I did not say no tonnage and feature limit, and GB could have hidden the 18 inch fact, like Yamato case. In this case, they had very good reason to keep them in secret, unlike 15 inch guns which had been well-known in QE class.
 
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It doesn't matter why the ships were designed as far as the US was concerned , if GB is building ships with 18" guns the US will do so as well. It isn't going to let itself get outgunned and the US has much more money. Despite Japanese complaining it limited the US more than anyone else. The Japanese were building ships at almost top speed even within those limits the US was not. It had more money than anyone. Having the same limits for the USN and the RN hurt the USN more than the RN. The US could simply outspend the UK + Japan with ease.
But will it? Historically the US government at least was totally happy with equality with RN so building more actually just means that IJN has less than the new limit for RN/USN, with hindsight might well be a good thing later...

I did not say no tonnage and feature limit, and GB could have hidden the 18 inch fact, like Yamato case
No It could not, all that gets is the admirals removed due to the scandal of hiding ships size and cost from parliament.
 
I did not say no tonnage and feature limit, and GB could have hidden the 18 inch fact, like Yamato case. In this case, they had very good reason to keep them in secret, unlike 15 inch guns which had been well-known in QE class.

So when does everyone learn of the 18" armament?

Japan was able to keep the Yamatos secret because it was a much less open society in 1937-41 than the UK or US - and of course she was at war at the time the Yamato reached operational status.

Britain actually did pull a stunt sort of like this with Invincible, putting out information that led the KM to assume she would only be given a cruiser armament (9.2"guns), and accordingly Tirpitz ordered the Bluchers to have 8.2" guns - and lo and behold, the Invincible hits the waves with 12" batteries. But all that did was mess up a class of German battlecruisers. The British couldn't keep the secret for that long. Certainly not with these monsters. And the moment they become public, there will be hell to pay.
 
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So when does everyone learn of the 18" armament?
My only working option would be fitted for but not with, fit them with 15" second hand guns but built mounts for 18", USN/IJN will guess but might be ok (The treaty is more about prestige for US than real power) on one ship as it just looks like you are trying to avoid a race and everybody wants an agreement (and you have signed you cant change them in WNT).

Then in 38-39 swap them with the 18" railway guns in stores...
 
But will it? Historically the US government at least was totally happy with equality with RN so building more actually just means that IJN has less than the new limit for RN/USN, with hindsight might well be a good thing later...

That wasn't my point, the US would be satisfied with equality which meant that it is going to have 18" guns as well. If GB pushes it too far the US will lose patience and outspend it.
 
A the US would be satisfied with equality which meant that it is going to have 18" guns as well.
B If GB pushes it too far the US will lose patience and outspend it.
A- Agree, US will demand and get equality
B- Disagree, Congress wanted to save money far more, as long as GB/RN is open and slow/calm in laying down ships they just get matched. (maybe +1 hull just to make the point but its irrelevant)
 
A- Agree, US will demand and get equality
B- Disagree, Congress wanted to save money far more, as long as GB/RN is open and slow/calm in laying down ships they just get matched. (maybe +1 hull just to make the point but its irrelevant)
1. True
2. I said if pushed which means very, very unlikely. Whitehall would have to be full of idiots to push Washington enough to do so. It is very unlikely to say the least but not quite impossible.
 
My only working option would be fitted for but not with, fit them with 15" second hand guns but built mounts for 18", USN/IJN will guess but might be ok (The treaty is more about prestige for US than real power) on one ship as it just looks like you are trying to avoid a race and everybody wants an agreement (and you have signed you cant change them in WNT).

Then in 38-39 swap them with the 18" railway guns in stores...

Clever.

But it's more than just mounts. If the ship is expected to be able to take on 18" tubes later on, they'll need to have the displacement and engines to accommodate it. So you're going to have a pretty damned big ship no matter what.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Clever.

But it's more than just mounts. If the ship is expected to be able to take on 18" tubes later on, they'll need to have the displacement and engines to accommodate it. So you're going to have a pretty damned big ship no matter what.
A big ship with 15 inch guns would not prompt the US to build ships with bigger gun calibre than OTL
 
A big ship with 15 inch guns would not prompt the US to build ships with bigger gun calibre than OTL

No, they'd probably stick with 16"/45 rifles.

But you're still talking about a ship in the 55-65K ton range. A real monster. At a minimum, the US will want to finish out the Lexington-class to match them.

I do think the ultimate result will include less in the way of carrier decks for the US and Britain. Of course, if Japan goes bankrupt trying to keep up, maybe it's a moot point anyway.
 
Clever.

But it's more than just mounts. If the ship is expected to be able to take on 18" tubes later on, they'll need to have the displacement and engines to accommodate it. So you're going to have a pretty damned big ship no matter what.

So you build them as planned but your 18" guns have extra thick tube linings reducing the bore to 15 or 16 inches. When the treaty expires the guns are relined as the 18" monsters they were designed to be.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
So you build them as planned but your 18" guns have extra thick tube linings reducing the bore to 15 or 16 inches. When the treaty expires the guns are relined as the 18" monsters they were designed to be.
Imagining Bismarck going out and facing 2 18 inch Hoods plus a 15 inch PoW

Oh, and the 15 inch guns on these Hoods in this case could be immediately used for the upcoming KGV, after the Hood were reequipped with their original 18 inch guns
 
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OK found them just the speed though me as there is no 18" 32Kn version.

For 8x 18" you need design 6 (1,2,3 all have 15" with different engine powers 4 and 5 less 18")

Its going to be huge! Design 6 starts at 39.500t in 1916, Hood was around 36,250 and ended at 42,670t so she will grown to 45,000t (not adding the speed gain from 30-32Kn thats just not happening IMO)

As to the result RN gets one huge ships (others will be cancelled as OTL).

Then the question is did IJN and USN change the designs of the 16" ships they have building or not?
The US Navy had proposed follow ones to the 12x16" South Carolinas basically the same hull but with 8x18" guns,they had a 45 caliber 18" gun in the testing,so the they could up gun the South Carolins easily.
 
What about an 18' Hoods armour?
Surely it's not the same as OTL, because that is p*ss poor
Or are we going all or nothin?
 

Thomas1195

Banned
What about an 18' Hoods armour?
Surely it's not the same as OTL, because that is p*ss poor
Or are we going all or nothin?
Well, this would require scrapping original Hood right after Jutland, redesign a new all-or-nothing version of super QE BBs but with all small tube boilers, thicker sloped armour and 18 inch guns and naming them Hood. Then we have a real monster.
 
Well, this would require scrapping original Hood right after Jutland, redesign a new all-or-nothing version of super QE BBs but with all small tube boilers, thicker sloped armour and 18 inch guns and naming them Hood. Then we have a real monster.
Is either that or a ridiculously Overpowered glass jaw
 
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