WI: Hood sisters built as 8x18 inch naval guns

Thomas1195

Banned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral-class_battlecruiser
"Design '3' was Design '2' with the machinery power increased to 160,000 shaft horsepower (120,000 kW) to boost the maximum speed to 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph) while the other designs had either four, six or eight 18-inch (457 mm) guns".
What if RN went for for the eight 18 inch guns design? For example, having a POD involving Fisher not ousted or having a POD involving all Admiralty officials suddenly high and becoming big gun maniacs.

What would be the impact on WNT??

And what would be the impact on naval war during ww2 in Atlantic and Med?
 
Do you have any more details? I'm looking at Raven & Roberts (BBoWWT) but cant find the design?
 
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Thomas1195

Banned
Do you have any more details? I'm looking at Raven & Roberts (BBoWWT) but cant find design?
Here I found in wiki (4x18; 6x18 or 8x18; three versions overall)
"Design '3' was Design '2' with the machinery power increased to 160,000 shaft horsepower (120,000 kW) to boost the maximum speed to 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph) while the other designs had either four, six or eight 18-inch (457 mm) guns".
 
OK found them just the speed though me as there is no 18" 32Kn version.

For 8x 18" you need design 6 (1,2,3 all have 15" with different engine powers 4 and 5 less 18")

Its going to be huge! Design 6 starts at 39.500t in 1916, Hood was around 36,250 and ended at 42,670t so she will grown to 45,000t (not adding the speed gain from 30-32Kn thats just not happening IMO)

As to the result RN gets one huge ships (others will be cancelled as OTL).

Then the question is did IJN and USN change the designs of the 16" ships they have building or not?
 
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Well, this can butterfly away WNT. Unlike the American, British had sound reason to build these ships. They were built and designed in wartime, and for war effort.
But why would it? In OTL the Hood sisters got cancelled BEFORE WNT started, nothing changes that as the 18" Hoods are still going to be built slowly due to limit manpower in wartime and they will still be a mess from the changes post Jutland and end war trials so RN will start looking at clean sheets and scrap the 3 not finished.
Then WNT comes along and the government will still want to save cash as OTL...
 

Thomas1195

Banned
OK found them just the speed though me as there is not 18" 32Kn version.

Ffor 8x 18" you need design 6 (1,2,3 all have 15" with different engine powers 4 and 5 less 18")

Its going to be huge! Design 6 starts at 39.500t in 1916, Hood was around 36,250 and ended at 42,670t so she will grown to 45,000t (not adding the speed gain from 30-32Kn thats just not happening IMO)

As to the result RN gets one huge ships (others will be cancelled as OTL).

Then the question is did IJN and USN change the designs of the 16" ships they have building or not?
I am not sure the others would be scrapped as in this case RN would still have superior guns at least. At least would be far superior to Lex
 
WNT will still happen around the same time because everyone wants a naval limitation treaty. Particularly the Japanese after 1923. If these things are sufficiently advanced such that cancellation is impossible, then we just end up moving the goalposts of the WNT such that a certain number of very large, or 18", ships are allowed for the major signatories. So the Lexingtons and Amagis go ahead in some form.
 
I am not sure the others would be scrapped as in this case RN would still have superior guns at least.
The 15" was fine in OTL its the fact that they have a weak protection and with the knowledge from the end war trials you can do much better so why not do better? At that point WNT hits and stopped construction but that requires hindsight.
 
The rest of the world would want those ships gone, or re-armed with 16" guns.

WNT will still happen around the same time because everyone wants a naval limitation treaty. Particularly the Japanese after 1923. If these things are sufficiently advanced such that cancellation is impossible, then we just end up moving the goalposts of the WNT such that a certain number of very large, or 18", ships are allowed for the major signatories. So the Lexingtons and Amagis go ahead in some form.
I think a single ship doesn't really hurt WNT, might even help GB if they agree to build N&R with only 15" to compensate (as they don't have a 16" in development as they have gone to 18" already with unified N3s/G3s after 18" Hood)
 

Thomas1195

Banned
I think a single ship doesn't really hurt WNT, might even help GB if they agree to build N&R with only 15" to compensate (as they don't have a 16" in development as they have gone to 18" already with unified N3s/G3s after 18" Hood)
Well, in this case, as the RN had a big lead, they may try to alter the 5:5:3 to get all of 4 Hoods, 5 QE, 5 R, plus R&R, as well as N&R
 
Well, in this case, as the RN had a big lead, they may try to alter the 5:5:3 to get all of 4 Hoods, 5 QE, 5 R, plus R&R, as well as N&R
I'm not sure I think the 5,5 part is set as the US was simply much richer and had 16 ship building at that point. The IJN might get less than 3 if it doesn't think it can pay and the RN/USN ships will be newer and better so better for WWII later.
 
Per Brown's The Grand Fleet the 18" designs were all pre-Jutland and rejected because the gun wasn't ready. Per JSB above the design was stupidly big.... and, according to Brown, most designs had an 8" belt. Post Jutland an 8" belt is a none starter and the design gets rejected and replaced with something more feasible....
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Per Brown's The Grand Fleet the 18" designs were all pre-Jutland and rejected because the gun wasn't ready. Per JSB above the design was stupidly big.... and, according to Brown, most designs had an 8" belt. Post Jutland an 8" belt is a none starter and the design gets rejected and replaced with something more feasible....
Well, actually they would carry the guns similar to Furious. And that gun was at least better than Nelson 16 inch gun OTL, and of course more powerful. And having Hood built as 18 inch would automatically set a new standard for RN, provided that the Hood design not given to USN like OTL. Elswick Ordnance could produce that type of gun. And as the IJN and USN BBs after 1916 were not really post Jutland, they would be automatically outdated even before Jutland. Maybe having 2 built as BBs, 2 converted into big CVs (these CVs would be really huge, even bigger than Lexington). This would give Britain a bigger voice in WNT, maybe greater absolute limit (6.5 : 6.5 : 4 : 2 : 2), plus no BB holiday.
 
WNT will still happen around the same time because everyone wants a naval limitation treaty. Particularly the Japanese after 1923. If these things are sufficiently advanced such that cancellation is impossible, then we just end up moving the goalposts of the WNT such that a certain number of very large, or 18", ships are allowed for the major signatories. So the Lexingtons and Amagis go ahead in some form.

Right. And if they really want to stick to the tonnage limits, it just means more older dreadnoughts get scrapped. Which is not a bad deal - if you have a limited tonnage, you want as much of it to be as modern and powerful as possible.

This means also that the IJN and USN will have to build their first fleet carriers from the keel up, though.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Right. And if they really want to stick to the tonnage limits, it just means more older dreadnoughts get scrapped. Which is not a bad deal - if you have a limited tonnage, you want as much of it to be as modern and powerful as possible.

This means also that the IJN and USN will have to build their first fleet carriers from the keel up, though.
Maybe Britain could dictate more points than OTL, e.g. no BB holiday (for British interest), or larger absolute limit with the same ratio, or increase the ratio for everyone.
 
Maybe Britain could dictate more points than OTL, e.g. no BB holiday (for British interest), or larger absolute limit with the same ratio, or increase the ratio for everyone.
Could work.
So have a total tonnage limit for BBs per country, but no limit to their size...I think there should still be a restriction to gun size though
And preventing a BB holiday is important for Britain, otherwise it's shipyards will have no work and will have a poorly skilled workforce as per OTL
 
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