WI: Hongwu emperor converts to Islam?

He wrote a 100 word eulogy praising Islam and the Prophet Muhammad, even calling Islam "true and pure". Let's say Hongwu actually does convert to Islam. What happens to China, and the Ming Dynasty? Does China convert to Islam? Will Confucianism make a comeback?

(Yes, two "What is an empire converts to another religion" threads, but I couldn't resist)
 
Would even Ming court accept that? Might be that Hongwu or even Ming dynasty wouldn't last long. So China hardly would convert to Islam. Other religionsn were too established. If Ming government try convert Chinese people, it surely would lost Mandate of Heaven.
 
Would even Ming court accept that? Might be that Hongwu or even Ming dynasty wouldn't last long. So China hardly would convert to Islam. Other religionsn were too established. If Ming government try convert Chinese people, it surely would lost Mandate of Heaven.

Would the Ming Court even be able to stop him? If he converted to Islam early on then the Ming Court wouldn't really be established enough to stop him.

And yes, Mandate of Heaven would be lost.

Let's assume that it happens. Islam could create a Noble-Peasant divide in which Islam is the faith of the elite.

Best case scenario though you could actually see a Chinese Reformation of some kind. In which China could have been very similar to the Abbasid Caliphate with its enlightenment and scientific advances.
 
He wrote a 100 word eulogy praising Islam and the Prophet Muhammad, even calling Islam "true and pure". Let's say Hongwu actually does convert to Islam. What happens to China, and the Ming Dynasty? Does China convert to Islam? Will Confucianism make a comeback?

(Yes, two "What is an empire converts to another religion" threads, but I couldn't resist)
Would the Ming Court even be able to stop him? If he converted to Islam early on then the Ming Court wouldn't really be established enough to stop him.

And yes, Mandate of Heaven would be lost.

Let's assume that it happens. Islam could create a Noble-Peasant divide in which Islam is the faith of the elite.

Best case scenario though you could actually see a Chinese Reformation of some kind. In which China could have been very similar to the Abbasid Caliphate with its enlightenment and scientific advances.
If Zhu Yuanzhang was to adopt any unorthodox religion--it would be Manichaeism,since many of his followers,including himself were originally part of the Red Turban movement.The fact that he repressed it and adopted strict orthodoxy instead after he came to power indicates that he probably sees religion as a tool--nothing more.
 
One key aspect of the Chinese Emperor's job was to conduct traditional Chinese religious ceremonies -this is still part of the Japanese Emperor's job- and being a public adherent of an iconoclastic monotheistic religion creates a big problem with this.

When they got rid of the ceremonies they got rid of the imperial system along with it.

If Zhu Yuanzhang becomes an adherent of Islam while still fighting for power, and doesn't hide it, he cases alot more opposition and probably never becomes Emperor in the first place. I don't see him becoming Emperor and then converting, but if he tries it you will get chaos in the Forbidden City for awhile until he is poisoned.
 
By the way, even today the Queen of England is barred from being a Catholic, though she could convert to Islam if she wanted to.

Constantine the Great is not a good counter-example. He held off on being baptized until the very end, continued to be Pontifix Maximus and do that part of the job, and Roman traditional religion was simply alot weaker than Chinese traditional religion was in the 14th century. And even Christianity was far less structured than we are used to dealing with in terms of universal monotheistic faiths, the first ecumenical council was called by Constantine himself.
 
Honestly, it depends how far he takes his religion. Islam in China wasn't seen as the reactionary 'conversion by the sword' religion that European Christians viewed it. It largely grew naturally with the trade networks that formed between China and Europe. As a result, Chinese Islamic beliefs tend not to conflict with dominant Confucian beliefs. If he hopes to stay in power, the best way is simply to go for the Mughal approach - tolerate or even give equal status to the non-Muslim majority and participate in local traditions as per normal. In essence, put Chinese identity before Muslim identity. If he goes Aurangzeb (a way more orthodox Islamic ruler), well, the Ming dynasty would end there...
 
Zhu Yuanzhang praising Islam has as much meaning as Napoleon Bonaparte(Napoleon openly praised Islam in Egypt) doing so--it's most likely a gambit to buy the support of Muslim subjects.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
probably nothing happen. The Emperor now no longer eating pork and pray five times daily, while still conducting important Imperial ceremonies. Several millions of Chinese might stop eating pork while he is still alive, several thousands would actually convert to Islam, for majority nothing happens.
 
Would the Ming Court even be able to stop him? If he converted to Islam early on then the Ming Court wouldn't really be established enough to stop him.

And yes, Mandate of Heaven would be lost.

Let's assume that it happens. Islam could create a Noble-Peasant divide in which Islam is the faith of the elite.

Best case scenario though you could actually see a Chinese Reformation of some kind. In which China could have been very similar to the Abbasid Caliphate with its enlightenment and scientific advances.
Hui Muslims ?
 
Last edited:
I think, to get around the Mandate of Heaven, the Emperor could declare himself Caliph. It's far from a perfect title, but it could get him to be seen as the successor of God, and thus somewhat similar to the concept of the "Son of Heaven". That said, I don't think he could have had a lasting impact on Chinese Islam.

To get some sort of Chinese Islam, you could have a Turk conquer China. Say, have a Timurid establishes a kingdom in the Uyghur region. From there, he conquers and Islamicizes Mongolia and he and future generations slowly move south to conquer China, assimilating into Chinese society but not without leaving a large Muslim minority, as well as some Persianate culture (likely less than what was brought by OTL Mughals). Much like the Mughals, they could then declare themselves the Caliph, though unlike the Mughals, this title would probably be seen as highly important.
 
Hui Muslims ?

Except Hui Muslims aren't exactly nobles, though they are descended from Persian or Arab merchants. However, they were radically Sinicised under the Ming via intermarriage with Han Chinese, the sole exception to that being their religion. Other than that, they actually live pretty peaceful lives, at a time when Tibetan Muslims and Catholics face persecution from the authorities. It's likely a Muslim Ming emperor would do the same if he wants to avoid being ousted for being too foreign. We might see a slightly higher percentage of Muslim Hui, but not by much (South Asia is a good indication of how Islamicised China can get).
 
We could see something along the lines of Islam becoming a "Fourth Teaching" to complement Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism. Islam would be thoroughly Sinicized, with "Hui" becoming a major branch of Islam. They'd probably drop more Arabic and Persian as the Hui are more integrated into Chinese culture, retaining only a few key religious terms such as Allah. I'm sure it would be scandalous at first as the Emperor dons a white cap and builds madrassahs and mosques everywhere, but the Yuan were fairly religiously open(leaving the status quo religious freedom) and as long as the Hongwu Emperor does his Emperor's duties and pays heed to the most important Confucianist mandates then he'll be fine. I could see it becoming somewhat of a family tradition to learn about or patronize Islam, but not all Ming Emperors will be practicing Muslims past the Jianwen and Yongle Emperors.

The most important change will probably be expanded contact with the West. If Muslim merchants gain special privileges and send word the Emperor of China is a Muslim and China is now a Muslim land, it will definitely impact people like Timur and Murad or Bayezid Osmanglu. Timur might try to conquer his way to China to meet his "Brother in the Faith" and establish overland trade relations that collapsed during the Red Turban rebellion. I doubt he would repeatedly murder the envoys of a fellow Muslim. Either way, the attempted conquest of Ming China is most likely butterflied and thus, the method of his death. Timur's life is as long as the writer wants it. If he does decide to ally against instead of with his fellow Mongols then this would probably take his attention away from his later conquests in either Anatolia or Delhi.

Chinese history doesn't change much for the next 100 years besides some court drama, an extra rebellion or two put down by the same elite Muslim Hui and Uygher troops and then some neat new architecture and poetry. Timur's relationship to China changing changes an absurd amount. If Timur focuses on the East and splitting Central Asia with the Ming, then Bayezid Osmanglu will probably take Constantinople 50 years early. Establishing himself as Roman Emperor and Caliph shortly after defeating a Crusade in Nicomedia would be the ultimate affront to Timur's sensitive ego, who could barely stand another man claiming to be Emperor of China, let alone his rival Bayezid capturing the Queen of Cities and claiming authority over him. He would drop everything and attack full-force at the Ottoman Empire. Bayezid's huge support among the Ghazis would come into play here. He gathered an army of 85,000 against Timur OTL. As Emperor of Rome and Caliph he would most definitely be able to muster thousands more Ghazis from all over and could afford thousands more Janissaries and Saqaliba thanks to the generous donations of the Greeks. And since Bayezid is even more powerful than OTL, I would bet Timur wouldn't be able to recruit as many of the Turkic Beys to his side. This would lead to roughly equal forces, the greatest armies of the world, led by two great conquerors.

The battle will go whichever way the writer wills it. Timur outsmarted Bayezid OTL, who was arrogant and did not listen to his generals when they said to stay on the defensive and lure Timur to a more advantageous position. Bayezid took his tired and thirsty army and charged it right into Timur, who with greater numbers and mobility, slaughtered his army. Though this time it can go either way. Bayezid could be not so hot-headed, as he was forced to abandon his siege of Constantinople to deal with Timur's invasion OTL, but now is the Roman Emperor routing a barbarian invasion(ignore that they're both Turks.) Also it's past 1400, horse archer armies aren't invincible like in 1260. Lure them into a confined battlefield, like they did historically, and a few good heavy cavalry charges can chase them into waiting infantry and foot archers. That was the original plan, use the high ground and greater range of foot archer Janissaries to keep Timur from hit-and-runs, then force a melee, where the heavy infantry and cavalry can slaughter them like the legendary battle of Ain Jalut where the Mamluks defeated the Ilkhanate. So I'll let the Ottomans have this one. They capture Timur and he dies shortly of pneumonia he caught from being in the Tarsus Mountains at such a ripe age.

Bayezid the Great hears from Timur and his men that the Emperor of China is Muslim and sends an expedition(with gifts) over the sea from Basra(Central Asia is now in chaos) to inform the Huángdì that he was Caliph and thus, like totally his boss kind of, but as Roman Emperor he was his equal. The Yongle Emperor, who is now and forever shall be the most Muslim Huángdì that ever lived(thanks to the support of the Eunuchs, who took to Islam like a fish to water) is delighted to see an actual expedition from Daqin, not heard from in centuries, and even better, their Emperor is a Muslim. He ends up greatly offended that the Caliph could claim any authority over him, the Son of Heaven(metaphorically, of course) and sends demands to Bayezid that he cease claiming authority over him. In an astounding act of humility and graciousness, Bayezid sends an apology, and more gifts, asking for silk and porcelain in return.

Bayezid dies of liver cancer before his merchants can make it back, leaving the throne to Isa, who has killed two of his brothers already, convincing the other brothers not to try anything. Isa finishes the conquest of Wallachia and tidies up some of the remaining beys and Greeks before he dies in a freak sauna accident at only 39, leaving his young son Mehmet on the throne and forcing a civil war between his remaining brothers. Little Mehmet actually wins, thanks to the kind support of the Janissaries who in their gracious magnanimity took on custody of the poor boy and guarded his August Personage and Constantinople from treachery. The Turkish Empire soon becomes a state that would not be unfamiliar to the Japanese, with the Emperor pampered and confined to the Topkapi Palace while the Grand Vizier(the Emperor always picked a Janissary for some reason) truly ran things.

Back in China, people got used to a Hui Emperor pretty quick(still better than the damn Mongols.) Mosques are in many cities, thanks to converting becoming socially acceptable. Yunnan is very Muslim, thanks to the original colonists being Hui and most of the Han colonists converting upon arrival. But Hui Islam became increasingly divergent from Arab Islam. There became less and less scholarship on the Quran and less focus on the Shahada and more and more focus on the Hadith and Sunnah. As Hui Islam integrated even more with Chinese culture, it adopted more and more the characteristics of Chinese philosophy. Especially a focus on filial piety and cultivating virtues. As the Buddhists attempt to escape karma by emulating the Buddha, the Daoists to achieve harmony with the Dao through wuwei, and the Confucians to achieve society harmony though cultivation of virtue and maintenance of ethics, Hui Islam attempted to earn a place in Jannah(heaven) through cultivation of virtuous traits Muhammad exhibited or advocated for. Although this sounds just like Sunni Islam, all Ijma, or consensus within the faith, comes from the Chinese Ulema(religious community,) not from the Sahaba or Salaf, the original few generations of Muslims. The Hui Muslims even ended up with some Hadith that cannot be found anywhere else in the world. This meant the behavior deemed good could be pretty far divergent from mainstream Islam.

I'd go on but if I wrote any more I'd have to start my own timeline.
 
Top