WI: Holy Roman France, and Royal Germany?

I'm wondering if it is possible to imagine a situation where essentially France and Germany swapped their roles at the split of the Carolingian Empire, hence to see a fragmented "French (or Gaulic I can guess?) Holy Roman Empire" and a rather compact "Kingdom of Germany", assuming the border between them will be the Rhine?
 
Well this may lead to a culture hegimone in Germany while France would look more like Italy with regional culture dominating certain areas.
 
This is very imaginable. There were several occasions when it could have occured.

Lotharingia was a moving political entity, sometimes heading towards the king of east Francia, sometimes towards the king of west Francia.

Same for the kingdoms of Burgundy and Italy.
 
France1154.jpg

How about these French duchies stay divided like Italy, with a few cities, becoming republics in their own right?

The only problem with this is, as we saw with Spain, once one family marries into another, you can end up with a united Kingdom before you know it.
 
This is very imaginable. There were several occasions when it could have occured.

Lotharingia was a moving political entity, sometimes heading towards the king of east Francia, sometimes towards the king of west Francia.

Same for the kingdoms of Burgundy and Italy.

I agree, that this was very imaginable.

For this (a French HRE) to happen West Francia needs to control Italy (and thus have influence over the Papacy) and for that they need to control Burgundy (to control and have easy access to the Italian peninsula). Lotharingia OTOH could go either way, but with West Francia having to focus on Italy and Burgundy, I can still see East Francia prevailing there (if only because West Francia needs to focus elsewhere). Furthermore IOTL East Francia didn't need Burgundy to have direct access to Italy, whereas ITTL West Francia needs Burgundy.
 
Last edited:
You need a less successful Otto I for this to happen, without hurting Germany too much in the process. OTL he greatly reduced the autonomy and power of the different dukes, making them firmly his subjects instead of equals. He then went on to defeat the Hungarian nomads at Lechfeld, ending their raids in western Europe. Which boosted his prestige in Christian Europe, being viewed as the man who defeated the pagans. He then proceeded to conquered Italy, and was crowned Emperor in a similar manner to Charlemagne.

So all in all who he was a very competent man. For Western Francia to be able to claim the imperial title I imagine they must at least get their hands on Italy, at the very least. I believe having Otto I still defeat the Hungarians, but die before he invades Italy would be needed as well, or have him refrain from doing so all together. This would leave his son with relative firm control of Germany, without being overextended and squabbling with the pope in Italy and Muslims in Sicily. The problem with Otto I dying too early though is that is son is too young, Otto II was an infant when his father won the battle of Lechfeld and he was 6 years old when his father conquered Italy.

I agree, that this was very imaginable.

For this (a French HRE) to happen West Francia needs to control Italy (and thus have influence over the Papacy) and for that they need to control Burgundy (to control and have easy access to the Italian peninsula). Lotharingia OTOH could go either way, but with West Francia having to focus on Italy and Burgundy, I can still see East Francia prevailing there (if only because West Francia needs to focus elsewhere). Furthermore IOTL East Francia didn't need Burgundy to have direct access to Italy, whereas ITTL West Francia needs Burgundy.
Agreed, this French HRE need to be bigger than the OTL Kingdom of France in order to create several rival centers of powers. Ile-de-France, the Lowlands, Burgundy, Aquitaine and the Lombard region would be a good start. Could probably give them all of Lotharingia, albeit not necessary, could just go with the Rhine border as suggested and give Holland and Friesland to Germany. Keep them busy with the Pope, internal power struggles and conflicts with/in England, Italy, Iberia and of course Germany and I can see such an HRE being very interesting to follow. Especially if events like the Crusades and the settlements of the western hemisphere still happens at some point. I am very interested in seeing how it would play out of this HRE becomes as decentralized as the OTL HRE was. Would settlements made by individual princes still count as part of the HRE? The potential for crazy scenarios is pretty high.

That leaves a German Kingdom that can look several different ways depending on when the split happens. If it happens around the time Otto was made HRE OTL, a few years give or take before 1000AD then the German Kingdom (assuming a Western/Southern HRE like suggested above) would have no major territory west of the Rhine, the duchies of Sachsen, Franken, Schwaben and Bayern would be the core territory of such a state, and the marches in Austria and OTL Brandenburg/Mecklenburg/Saxony would already have been established. Then the question becomes what happens to Lotharingia, Bohemia, Moravia and Verona. I can see the French HRE getting all of Lotharingia, pretty much a border at the Rhine, which ruler gets Holland and Friesland is up for bets.

Verona is sketchy as well, at this point it is a march and was held by the Duke of Bayern, so I assume it would initially go to Germany. But I can imagine it being contested by the French Emperor, with it being right next to Lombardia. That said, it's fairly far away from the the core "French" territories, an Emperor focusing his power so far east might face trouble in the west. The same issue the Hohenstaufens had with Southern Italy vs Germany, except now it will be even further spread out, going from Antwerp to Paris to Bordeaux to Milan to Rome.

The last question then is what becomes of the Duchies of Bohemia and Moravia, I assume they remain a part of Germany. But it will be interesting to see how it would work out ITTL, for one it would never be granted the standing of King by a German King. OTL it was made a Kingdom by 1198 and recognized shortly after in exchange for taking side of elected Emperor Philip of Swabia against his rival for leadership Otto IV. See no reason why it would be less integrated than OTL.
 
@ Natte: by the time of Otto the Great, Lotharingia had been integrated in East Francia. Besides as I pointed out in my previous post, West Francia needs to focus on Burgundy and Italy ITTL. So without having to worry about Italy, East Francia would be in an even better position to hold and keep Lotharingia.
Verona is another interesting territory, however without Otto the Great, it will stay Italian.
So IMHO you might end up with a division looking like this.

FranciaAlt.png
 
Last edited:
France1154.jpg

How about these French duchies stay divided like Italy, with a few cities, becoming republics in their own right?

The only problem with this is, as we saw with Spain, once one family marries into another, you can end up with a united Kingdom before you know it.

Further complicating things is how incredibly successful the Capetian Dynasty is in securing itself by having male heirs always available. IIRC, it's the second longest family line next to the Imperial family of Japan.

Perhaps if Hughes Capet isn't elected, or the dynasty withers out early, then another election would happen. If the problem becomes consistent, perhaps the nobles decide on keeping it an elective monarchy.
 
A Gaulish HRE would stay unified. At least in France.

The decentralization is a Germanic thing, because the territories conquered by the Frenks were tribes, wich were reformed into duchies, and they were highly autonomous.

I can see Occitania becoming more and more autonomous, though, as well as Italy.

If Aragon is conquered (wich is very plausible, in order to push the Caliphate souther and to controll Italy more, aswell to controll the Mediterrain. Tunisia as a march? Dalmatia may be in the list aswell.

You can see this in the map of the division of the Frenkish kingdom in the treaty of Verdun. The french king has a shitload of counts under direct jirusdiction, and occitania is a bunch of grand dukes.

I can see a way harsher conflict between the Emperor and the Pope, with eventual victory of the Pope and more autonomy to Italy.

Also I can see a less harsher Frenchification of minorities.
 
A Gaulish HRE would stay unified. At least in France.

The decentralization is a Germanic thing, because the territories conquered by the Frenks were tribes, wich were reformed into duchies, and they were highly autonomous.

The french kings were very weak and had not that much power. Their personal domain only included Paris. If the French king has to deal with Italian Uprisings and the pope his might is smaller because he has to travel and lead expeditions into Italy while the German King can focus on enhancing his power. French royal authority would decline. The Investiture Controversy will be a big problem for the Roman Emperor and his authority. German Leaders always had to please the pope to be crowned emperor. Now this is an French task. In this ATL there will be no Philip Augustus to enlarge the royal domain and centralise the realm because the alternate Philip is spending time in Italy.

If the Capets die out and there's no male heir the Roman Empire could become a elective monarchy and royal power would decline again and possibly every election.
 
@ Natte: by the time of Otto the Great, Lotharingia had been integrated in East Francia. Besides as I pointed out in my previous post, West Francia needs to focus on Burgundy and Italy ITTL. So without having to worry about Italy, East Francia would be in an even better position to hold and keep Lotharingia.
Verona is another interesting territory, however without Otto the Great, it will stay Italian.
So IMHO you might end up with a division looking like this.

Indeed. I see no one has commented about the Spanish Marches but I can definitely see a West Francian HRE concentrating on those.

We could see Brittany taking a more Bohemian role TTL. Perhaps they get a royal title? or one of the Spanish Marches gains one as the Imperial Representative beyond the Pyrenees
 
Give them Lotharingia too. It was the carolingian heartland. And such a Holy Frank Empire cannot hold if the carolingians don't stay at the helm.
 
Give them Lotharingia too. It was the carolingian heartland. And such a Holy Frank Empire cannot hold if the carolingians don't stay at the helm.

I already explained, why IMHO that's unlikely. Again East Francia had direct access to the Italian peninsula, whereas West Francia first needs to control Burgundy, before being able to do so. So ITTL West Francia needs to focus on Burgundy and Italy, this gives East Francia an advantage in Lotharingia (greater than IOTL).

Well IOTL the Holy Roman Empire, which developed out of East Francia managed fine (certainly the first centuries) without the Carolingians.
 
I think, on the contrary, that holding the two (Lotharingia and Burgundy) makes It easier to control Italy too than just holding one of the two.

This is basically what happened with the ottonians.
 
I think that only holds true for a German based HRE.

More specifically, holding Burgundy is very useful for a German based HRE because it provides another route to Italy in addition to Austria/Carniola. Lotharingia is useful because it is somewhat between Germany and Burgundy. Essentially Lotharingia does not directly help in holding Italy at all, but for Germany it helps in holding Burgundy, which in turn helps in holding Italy.

For a France based HRE this is not the case. France already has a major land border with Burgundy and holding Lotharingia does not appreciably extend that border.

Now what it could do is provide a buffer between Burgundy and Germany. I'm sure a Frankish HRE would want to expand into Lotharingia the same way Royal France did, but Lotharingia itself is vastly less important for holding Burgundy, and thus Italy, than it was for our German HRE.
 
Actually no, Burgundy AKA Arelat/Arles only became a part of the Holy Roman Empire in 1032 during the reign of the Salian dynasty, not the Ottonian (or Liudolfing) dynasty.

In other words East Francia/the German Kingdom didn't need Burgundy to conquer Italy, since they already have a direct border with it.
However France needs Burgundy in order to border Italy and be able to easily interfere in Italian affairs. Thus ITTL West Francia will need to focus on that and not so much on Lotharingia, which will make it easier for East Francia to win that.
In contrast IOTL East Francia could focus on Italy and Lotharingia, and pay less attention to Burgundy, until they had secured Italy and Lotharingia, it also helped that Burgundy was an independent kingdom. Lotharingia, as a Frankish/Carolingian kingdom, like West and East Francia was eventually integrated.

It may even be a part of a an agreement to divide the respective spheres of influence; West Francia can focus on Italy and have Burgundy, in exchange East Francia gets Lotharingia.

IMHO the only way for TTL ''French'' Holy Roman Empire to also secure Lotharingia would be situation, which mirrors how IOTL the ''German'' Holy Roman Empire eventually also gained Burgundy, they (Lotharingia) manage to keep their own kings. However IOTL the Ottonian Henry the Fowler (father of Otto the Great) had already integrated Lotharingia into the German Kingdom. Once that happens, then they will keep it.
 
Last edited:
A Gaulish HRE would stay unified. At least in France.

The decentralization is a Germanic thing, because the territories conquered by the Frenks were tribes, wich were reformed into duchies, and they were highly autonomous.
(...)

Actually early Capetian France was more decentralized than the early Holy Roman Empire.

The dukes of Burgundy, Aquitaine and Normandy, and the counts of Flanders, Toulouse, Anjou and Champagne were also very autonomous.
 
Top