Your other grandfather was indeed very lucky. Especially, if he was on board the Repulse while she was part of Force Z.
WI: HMS Hood Manages To Limp Back to Port After Tangling With Bismarck
- Thread starter politicalnomad
- Start date
My Blithe Confidence comes from the way in which the Royal Navy conducts itself. That and the simple fact that even with 4 15 inch guns the RN would not retreat without shooting. The Gunnery of HMS Hood will be decisive and allow HMS POW to deal more damage and reduce the chance that KM Prinz Eugen will be able to get loose.
Bismarck was a large Battleship with excellent subdivision and fighting ability, but it was not proof against 14-inch guns let alone the 15 inches. Every hit would reduce capacity to fight.
It would not do well against Hood and POW without the Golden BB that sank the ship.
The entire premise is that the aft guns are knocked out either completely or until checked for function. Even a mobility reduction will simply result in HMS Hood shooting at Bismarck until she is out of range.
Every minute the battle continues reduces the chances of Bismarck escaping and increases the chances for other results.
do we believe that Hood with her aft main guns gone and down to 4 15" and no real backup by PoW (faulty guns) can now single-handedly defeat an undamaged Bismarck AND Prinz Eugen? I think that is a stretch.
If the aft guns are gone, I could imagine that it would somehow tell the good captain that this is getting dangerous. Maybe this is serious damage that is hard to ignore.
The gun optics of Bismarck was more efficient (I believe), but Siemens was also onboard as it had a few glitzes. I read somewhere that the better optics counted for the early hits of Bismarck.
if we go back to the OP scenario, I could see a few things:
1) Hood crippled badly but not sinking. PoW retreating as the gun problem cannot guarantee any serious hits, only the sinking of PoW (but not Hood in this scenario):
The match is a draw. Bismarck goes back to Norway. Hood off to the US for a year or more and PoW gets the teething problems sorted (and goes off to Force Z).
2) Hood crippled and Bismarck continues as OTL and goes down as OTL
RN victory!
Just an opinion
If the aft guns are gone, I could imagine that it would somehow tell the good captain that this is getting dangerous. Maybe this is serious damage that is hard to ignore.
The gun optics of Bismarck was more efficient (I believe), but Siemens was also onboard as it had a few glitzes. I read somewhere that the better optics counted for the early hits of Bismarck.
if we go back to the OP scenario, I could see a few things:
1) Hood crippled badly but not sinking. PoW retreating as the gun problem cannot guarantee any serious hits, only the sinking of PoW (but not Hood in this scenario):
The match is a draw. Bismarck goes back to Norway. Hood off to the US for a year or more and PoW gets the teething problems sorted (and goes off to Force Z).
2) Hood crippled and Bismarck continues as OTL and goes down as OTL
RN victory!
Just an opinion
I totally agree with the concept of elan intrinsic to the RN, and in the longer term and big picture the confidence is justified, so don't think I'm taking a poke at that. But in the reality of combat, taking a blow like that is like being knocked down in the first few seconds of a fight and being dazed after the standing eight count. IRL it was a knockout blow, but here the scenario doesn't guarantee a Rocky like comeback in this one fight. The reality is the situation is so much harder, and while I think it's much more likely to be as Wellington described Waterloo, it's going to be a near rum thing and the result would hinge on subsequent damage from the exchange. Here again I believe the Hood's BC heritage also counts against it in a long bruising struggle likely to follow. T
HMS Hood had vulnerabilities to long range fire due to her deck armour. Her turrets and barbettes had decent armour, Her belt was 12 inches and her barbette was 12 inches as well. She is not immune to Bismarck however at the range she wanted her vitals had decent protection.
It is important to note that the German 15 inch on Bismarck was an excellent gun and at ranges below 20,000yards would turn most opponents into swiss cheese.
The British 15 inch had less penetration theoretically but was a good hole puncher. The 14 inch had similar capabilities and with 12 to 14 inches of armour on Bismarck the odds of getting a shell through the armour was good.
www.navweaps.com
Stuart Slade has a good article on the destruction of Bismarck and it shows the effectiveness of the 14 inch guns and the problems the guns still had on a worked up operational Battleship. This missing salvo's was not unique to the RN but even happened to the USN at times as well.
It is important to note that the German 15 inch on Bismarck was an excellent gun and at ranges below 20,000yards would turn most opponents into swiss cheese.
The British 15 inch had less penetration theoretically but was a good hole puncher. The 14 inch had similar capabilities and with 12 to 14 inches of armour on Bismarck the odds of getting a shell through the armour was good.
History and Technology - Destruction of the Bismarck - NavWeaps
Stuart Slade has a good article on the destruction of Bismarck and it shows the effectiveness of the 14 inch guns and the problems the guns still had on a worked up operational Battleship. This missing salvo's was not unique to the RN but even happened to the USN at times as well.
Having looked at the missing salvos in battle by the KGV classes in the past, in the other 2 main ones we see DOY firing 28 Salvos vs Scharnhorst with one major issue and KGV firing about 30 vs Bismarck before experiencing any serious issues.HMS Hood had vulnerabilities to long range fire due to her deck armour. Her turrets and barbettes had decent armour, Her belt was 12 inches and her barbette was 12 inches as well. She is not immune to Bismarck however at the range she wanted her vitals had decent protection.
It is important to note that the German 15 inch on Bismarck was an excellent gun and at ranges below 20,000yards would turn most opponents into swiss cheese.
The British 15 inch had less penetration theoretically but was a good hole puncher. The 14 inch had similar capabilities and with 12 to 14 inches of armour on Bismarck the odds of getting a shell through the armour was good.
History and Technology - Destruction of the Bismarck - NavWeaps
Stuart Slade has a good article on the destruction of Bismarck and it shows the effectiveness of the 14 inch guns and the problems the guns still had on a worked up operational Battleship. This missing salvo's was not unique to the RN but even happened to the USN at times as well.
This is significantly more than other nations battleships during the war!
But its always used to critique the KGVs regardless!
Both the NelRods 16" guns system and the County class 8" gun system gave all sorts of problems which took many years to solve - luckily during peacetime.
Lutjens is not going to stick around and fight a Two vs One fight. He would not know what problems there are on the Hood or POW in real time and would just think they are having some problems but with it being the RN would not want to stick around if they get to working. Once the shells from either the Hood or POW start hitting close or even on the Bismarck they are going to want to disengage from the fight. Remember there is an advantage of the UK of having 18 guns to 8 guns. The Norfolk and Suffolk are also running around and it would not make a difference if the Eugen is there because again there is 2 CA's Vs 1 CA and he would not want those odds either. Even though Lutjens was a committed Nazi he also undertood what his mission was, it was not to sink UK BB's but to get out among the convoys and cause problems there.
Admiral Günther Lütjens was many things, but he was certainly not a committed Nazi.
A Nazi would not have a Jewish wife. A Nazi would not directly protest against the events of Kristallnacht to Raeder, both verbally and in writing. A Nazi, as head of the personnel department of the Kriegsmarine, would not protect Jewish officers and keep them in the service. By which he saved these people's lives, because as active members of the Wehrmacht they were protected.
I don't like Lütjens, I don't even think he was a good admiral. He was a slave to orders, it killed him and over 2000 of his subordinates. But I definitely don't consider him a Nazi. Just because someone serves their country doesn't make them a Nazi.
I recommend looking at some of his photos from May 1941. When the battleship Bismarck was visited by Adolf Hitler. All but Admiral Lütjens salute Adolf Hitler with the Nazi salute, only the Admiral used the military one. That says something in itself.
I think @Jotun has more knowledge on this topic than I do, hopefully he will give his opinion.
IIRC this characterization if more based on the movie "Sink The Bismarck" than real life. The movie portrays Admiral Lutjens as the ardent Nazi and the Bismarck's Captain Lindeman as the hesitant non-Nazi when the more the opposite was true in real life.
Randy
I tgink we yoday have a few built in assumptions about the Hood and its fight and sinking. And i think that it is at least in part a result of the simple fact that A) we truly have no good evidence to work from and B) the folks who got to make the “ruling” on what sunk her were directly or in directly linked to and had an investment in the cause. This is tantamount to letting my kid determine the cause of an accident i got into with my car. While maybe the resultant findings are accurate it should still be viewed as somewhat suspect vs taken as gospel. Add in that post war a lot (if mot most) English language books that touch on the subject are written by “Englishmen” does not help this. And as a result we now seam to just accept the “golden BB” argument.
The reality MAY be different.
There is hood reason to believe that Hoods design was compromised in various ways. And we know she was never modernized. And even if her design was not compromised at the time she was designed/built, it was without any doubt some what “Dated”. And frankly her reputation far outstripped the reality of her design. Some folks seam to think she was the greatest Battleship ever built which is simply an over inflation of her design/power/ability, Add in that we have NO reason to assume that flash suppression systems would have worked or eve if they were oroperly maintained snd being used and we do have a bit of a history of RN ships cutting corners in that regard and the “Golden BB” is looking like it may only have had to been ”Silver“ or even “Bronze”.
Once again i am not saying it was any of these as we will never know. BUT i am saying the believe that it was a one in a billion fluke golden BB is in my opinion over stated and originates from the RN (who had a vested interest in it being pure luck). She was not drastically superior to Bismarch so the idea that the only way Bismarck could win the fight is by pure accident is patently absurd. Just as anyone stating Bismarch was the best BB ever built and is assured the win is being ridiculous.
So i think it is reasonable to question the assumption that if that ONE particular round misses then Hood survives with minimal damage and wins. It COULD happen. Or another round could blow her or her companion out of the water (or Bismarck for that matter) None of the ships involved in that battler we SO superior that they were invulnerable.
I do question that if she was damaged but not sunk if she would have taken Bismarck. As so much of the ship is filled with so many important systems that if lost or damaged may force her out of the fight that it is possible that ant significant hit would end the battle. A propulsion casualty being an obvious example. If you lose speed then Bismarck simply can out run her. Other systems can have a similar result.
I think ultimately Bismarck is doomed, the RN is just too powerful and too invested in sinking her. But There are many ways that Hood could be taken out short of her sinking.
As for the idea that she went down because of an unrelated mechanical issue? I dount buy it. The odds that a mechanical system A) fails catastrophically, B) get the observed results (the flame the explosion etc) and C) it hapoening while in a major battle right after she took some hits just is to much coincidence for me.
The reality MAY be different.
There is hood reason to believe that Hoods design was compromised in various ways. And we know she was never modernized. And even if her design was not compromised at the time she was designed/built, it was without any doubt some what “Dated”. And frankly her reputation far outstripped the reality of her design. Some folks seam to think she was the greatest Battleship ever built which is simply an over inflation of her design/power/ability, Add in that we have NO reason to assume that flash suppression systems would have worked or eve if they were oroperly maintained snd being used and we do have a bit of a history of RN ships cutting corners in that regard and the “Golden BB” is looking like it may only have had to been ”Silver“ or even “Bronze”.
Once again i am not saying it was any of these as we will never know. BUT i am saying the believe that it was a one in a billion fluke golden BB is in my opinion over stated and originates from the RN (who had a vested interest in it being pure luck). She was not drastically superior to Bismarch so the idea that the only way Bismarck could win the fight is by pure accident is patently absurd. Just as anyone stating Bismarch was the best BB ever built and is assured the win is being ridiculous.
So i think it is reasonable to question the assumption that if that ONE particular round misses then Hood survives with minimal damage and wins. It COULD happen. Or another round could blow her or her companion out of the water (or Bismarck for that matter) None of the ships involved in that battler we SO superior that they were invulnerable.
I do question that if she was damaged but not sunk if she would have taken Bismarck. As so much of the ship is filled with so many important systems that if lost or damaged may force her out of the fight that it is possible that ant significant hit would end the battle. A propulsion casualty being an obvious example. If you lose speed then Bismarck simply can out run her. Other systems can have a similar result.
I think ultimately Bismarck is doomed, the RN is just too powerful and too invested in sinking her. But There are many ways that Hood could be taken out short of her sinking.
As for the idea that she went down because of an unrelated mechanical issue? I dount buy it. The odds that a mechanical system A) fails catastrophically, B) get the observed results (the flame the explosion etc) and C) it hapoening while in a major battle right after she took some hits just is to much coincidence for me.
Lütjens was Old Guard Kaiserliche Marine. Authoritarian, yes. Flexible as an anvil, definitely. Fatalistic to a fault, absolutely. But he was not a Nazi. @Petr K. already mentioned Lütjens' views concerning Jews. I want to add that he simply ignored the Nuremberg Race Laws when it came to implementing them in the ranks of the Kriegsmarine. That takes guts and spine.
The first salvo of Denmark Straits was a 4 gun (A and B turrets) salvo by HMS Hood at Prinz Eugen
She thought she was firing at Bismarck as the silhouettes are similar and the last report had placed PE in front, not helped by her main director (behind the forward turrets in front of the Bridge) being deluged with spray requiring her to rely on the smaller higher mast director
This Salvo achieved a straddle which all things considered was a pretty good achievement.
So for a reasonable POD have the POW (who with higher and better Directors was able to correctly ID the ships) advise before the Hood opens fire that the Bismarck is leading rather than "Why are you shooting at the Cruiser?" after.
So instead of a straddle on PE she gets a straddle on Bismarck with one of the shells striking the deck and impacting Bruno turrets Barbette before exploding with the shock damage knocking out both Anton and Bruno reducing her to 4 guns with the result that her return fire is less effective
Having not having to change targets and rebuilding her plot Hood goes on to complete her turn and along with POW achieves more straddles and subsequent hits on the German Battleship further degrades her fighting ability.
Prinz Eugen seeing her charge in serious trouble turns towards the 2 British ships to conduct a torpedo attack which obliges both Hood and POW to change targets and ultimately 'turn away' while Bismarck turns North on fire with only one rear turret under local control.
However the Cruiser while racing to reach a point to launch her torpedoes is hit by several heavy calibre shells as well as a number of smaller 5.25" shells from POWs secondaries causing serious damage and she herself turns away.
Turning back after the danger of torpedoes has passed both British capital ships ignoring the burning fleeing German Cruiser pursue the Bismarck who is several knots slower than them due to accrued damage.
Bismarck's surviving officers deciding that the ship is too badly damaged turn back towards the Denmark Strait and attempt to escape, but seeing that the 2 British ships are closing and knowing that a pair of heavy Crusiers are between them and safety turn to fight and with Anton now back under local control ignire POW (reasoning that she being more modern has better Armor) engage Hood with 4 guns hitting her 4 times in the 23 minutes it takes the British ships to finally silence her, causing heavy flooding and several fires amidships to the British battlecruiser.
Norfolk and Suffolk having observed the battle from a distance but seeing the Bismarck is doomed set off to intercept the fleeing Prinz Eugen sinking her after a 45 minute duel before turning back to the location of the main fight.
3 Of the detached destroyers having arrived from the detached patrol and are ordered to put the Bismarck down (now ablaze and clearly sinking) close to short range and hit her with an estimated 11 torpedoes and she eventually rolls over and sinks before the destroyer pull nearly 500 survivors out of the water.
Despite returning the location of Prinz Eugens sinking less than 70 of her crew survive (having spent many hours in the sea) to be rescued.
Hoods ordeal however is not over as her crew sought to put out several major fires and stem the serious flooding and according to some accounts its touch and go for a while if her captain orders the ships company to abandon ship although this is never mentioned in the official report.
She eventually makes it back to the UK where she is patched up and then sent to the USA where she receives a major repair that takes 5 months to address the damage she has taken, completely overhaul her very tired machinary, modernise her fire control systems, fit multiple radar fitting 3 more Octuple Pom Pom guns and dozens of 20mm cannon as well as many other improvements that had been planned for many years but never undertaken. (Edit the adding of 5" twins is well out of scope so I removed that)
Dec 7th finds her working up in the West Indies and she quickly transits the Panama canal to join Warspite as the only 2 operational Battleships on the Western Seaboard of the USA in the weeks following the Pearl Harbour attack where she is placed at the disposal of the USN for the next 6 months acting as a fast escort for the USNs carrier forces as a foil to the IJNs Kongos.
But it is her improved AAA weapons that make the difference as she shoots down a dozen Japanese carrier planes attacking the USS Lexington at the Battle of Coral sea possibly preventing her from taking even more damage than she did.
She thought she was firing at Bismarck as the silhouettes are similar and the last report had placed PE in front, not helped by her main director (behind the forward turrets in front of the Bridge) being deluged with spray requiring her to rely on the smaller higher mast director
This Salvo achieved a straddle which all things considered was a pretty good achievement.
So for a reasonable POD have the POW (who with higher and better Directors was able to correctly ID the ships) advise before the Hood opens fire that the Bismarck is leading rather than "Why are you shooting at the Cruiser?" after.
So instead of a straddle on PE she gets a straddle on Bismarck with one of the shells striking the deck and impacting Bruno turrets Barbette before exploding with the shock damage knocking out both Anton and Bruno reducing her to 4 guns with the result that her return fire is less effective
Having not having to change targets and rebuilding her plot Hood goes on to complete her turn and along with POW achieves more straddles and subsequent hits on the German Battleship further degrades her fighting ability.
Prinz Eugen seeing her charge in serious trouble turns towards the 2 British ships to conduct a torpedo attack which obliges both Hood and POW to change targets and ultimately 'turn away' while Bismarck turns North on fire with only one rear turret under local control.
However the Cruiser while racing to reach a point to launch her torpedoes is hit by several heavy calibre shells as well as a number of smaller 5.25" shells from POWs secondaries causing serious damage and she herself turns away.
Turning back after the danger of torpedoes has passed both British capital ships ignoring the burning fleeing German Cruiser pursue the Bismarck who is several knots slower than them due to accrued damage.
Bismarck's surviving officers deciding that the ship is too badly damaged turn back towards the Denmark Strait and attempt to escape, but seeing that the 2 British ships are closing and knowing that a pair of heavy Crusiers are between them and safety turn to fight and with Anton now back under local control ignire POW (reasoning that she being more modern has better Armor) engage Hood with 4 guns hitting her 4 times in the 23 minutes it takes the British ships to finally silence her, causing heavy flooding and several fires amidships to the British battlecruiser.
Norfolk and Suffolk having observed the battle from a distance but seeing the Bismarck is doomed set off to intercept the fleeing Prinz Eugen sinking her after a 45 minute duel before turning back to the location of the main fight.
3 Of the detached destroyers having arrived from the detached patrol and are ordered to put the Bismarck down (now ablaze and clearly sinking) close to short range and hit her with an estimated 11 torpedoes and she eventually rolls over and sinks before the destroyer pull nearly 500 survivors out of the water.
Despite returning the location of Prinz Eugens sinking less than 70 of her crew survive (having spent many hours in the sea) to be rescued.
Hoods ordeal however is not over as her crew sought to put out several major fires and stem the serious flooding and according to some accounts its touch and go for a while if her captain orders the ships company to abandon ship although this is never mentioned in the official report.
She eventually makes it back to the UK where she is patched up and then sent to the USA where she receives a major repair that takes 5 months to address the damage she has taken, completely overhaul her very tired machinary, modernise her fire control systems, fit multiple radar fitting 3 more Octuple Pom Pom guns and dozens of 20mm cannon as well as many other improvements that had been planned for many years but never undertaken. (Edit the adding of 5" twins is well out of scope so I removed that)
Dec 7th finds her working up in the West Indies and she quickly transits the Panama canal to join Warspite as the only 2 operational Battleships on the Western Seaboard of the USA in the weeks following the Pearl Harbour attack where she is placed at the disposal of the USN for the next 6 months acting as a fast escort for the USNs carrier forces as a foil to the IJNs Kongos.
But it is her improved AAA weapons that make the difference as she shoots down a dozen Japanese carrier planes attacking the USS Lexington at the Battle of Coral sea possibly preventing her from taking even more damage than she did.
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The difficulty here is that the scenario assumes that Hood, having dodged her "Golden BB" survives the rest of the engagement, that is far from certain.
Hood suffered, quite badly, from the Admiralty's adoration and the desire to use her as the "Poster Child" for the RN throughout the 20s-30s. Combined with budget issues this prevented Hood from receiving a desperately need refit to provide here with proper armor to defend against plunging fire. Even the 20.3cm mounts on Prinz Eugen were capable of penetrating most of her deck armor at useful range. There is no reason to assume that Bismarck would shift fire from Hood after the first successful salvo having found the British ship range. An addition series of hits against Hoods very thin deck armor (a maximum of three inches, with much of the ship less well protected), is likely to be fatal, although in a far less dramatic fashion than IOTL.
In a very real way the Denmark Strait engagement is similar to the 1942 engagement between USS Washington and IJN "Battleship"/Battlecruiser Kirishima A WW I British BC design (with pretensions in the case of Kirishima) facing a 20+ year newer design capable of plunging fire, a threat the RN designers of the WW I era had never complemented. In both cases the engagements were more of an execution than a stand-up fight.
Hood suffered, quite badly, from the Admiralty's adoration and the desire to use her as the "Poster Child" for the RN throughout the 20s-30s. Combined with budget issues this prevented Hood from receiving a desperately need refit to provide here with proper armor to defend against plunging fire. Even the 20.3cm mounts on Prinz Eugen were capable of penetrating most of her deck armor at useful range. There is no reason to assume that Bismarck would shift fire from Hood after the first successful salvo having found the British ship range. An addition series of hits against Hoods very thin deck armor (a maximum of three inches, with much of the ship less well protected), is likely to be fatal, although in a far less dramatic fashion than IOTL.
In a very real way the Denmark Strait engagement is similar to the 1942 engagement between USS Washington and IJN "Battleship"/Battlecruiser Kirishima A WW I British BC design (with pretensions in the case of Kirishima) facing a 20+ year newer design capable of plunging fire, a threat the RN designers of the WW I era had never complemented. In both cases the engagements were more of an execution than a stand-up fight.
The main reason that Hood might survive is that the Germans will be disengaging as soon as they can. Bismarck might be able to sink Hood if he stays around but as they know the RN is converging, just like the twins when facing a single R , discretion would be the best part of valour as they cannot afford being lamed.
Kirishima’s loss had nothing to do with plunging fire and deck protection. The engagement was at far too close a range for that. Kirishima was lost because she was bushwhacked at point-blank range - you subsitute just about any other battleship in Kirishima’s place and they’re going to have only a marginally better time, because no practical thickness of belt armor was standing up to those 16” guns at such close range. Where Kirishima’s age showed was in her resistance to the fragments from delay-fused shells, which she genuinely hadn’t been designed for and which resulted in her watertight integrity being utterly destroyed.
Denmark Strait isn’t so clear-cut, but I tend to agree with Drachinifel’s analysis that the deck armor was not likely a culprit in her loss. Though conducted at longer ranges than Second Guadalcanal, the range by the time Hood exploded was well into the medium-range band, a band that practically every prewar navy knew was close enough that deck penetrations were not likely. As well, the Brits, according to Friedman’s Naval Firepower book, considered Hood’s deck armor adequate already - probably because, among other things, any shell hitting the deck also had to go through the 7” or 5” upper belt. And finally, German shells just plain weren’t suited toward deck penetrations. Light shells and high velocity are not a good recipe for such.
That said, I agree that Hood surviving the engagement isn’t guaranteed. That 4” magazine going up is going to wreck half her engines and the resulting progressive flooding would be catastrophic. Any further hits compromising her watertight integrity are liable to doom her, since she was short of spare buoyancy to begin with from all the armor added.
I don’t see any way for her to be ready for action by December 7th. If she survives she’s going to be in quite awful shape, and a single bomb hit to Warspite‘s upperworks necessitated four months of work. The salvage and modernization of West Virginia and California, of comparable scope, took over two years. The Brits are not going to see her back before 1944.
Minor nitpick, but my understanding is that the last report from Norfolk and Suffolk was (correctly) that Bismarck was leading, but in engaging the cruisers Bismarck managed to knock out her own radar, so they swapped round - hence PE was leading at Demark Strait when Hood engaged her.
This is correct, but you didn't say anything about bringing guns to bear - you meantioned bring them to bare, which clearly indicates a belief that they were covered in some way.
As Hornet pointed out, she was in the medum-range band, and therefore in her immune zone against Bismarck. That immune zone wasn't hugely wide, but that's why I call her armour decent rather than good or very good.
No, which is why you get under cover (which also helps with the issue of 8" and 15" shells coming in). Leave the fire alone, let the ready-use ammo cook off (it was limited in quantity for exactly this reason), get rid of the torpedoes, and concentrate on the primary problem - Bismarck.
Her armour wasn't penetrated - it couldn't have been at the range in question, especially not by 8", plunging or otherwise.
I haven't disputed that - I've repeatedly described them as malfunctioning and being repaired.
What exactly does this have to do with either a) a scenario in which Hood isn't sunk and therefore keeps fighting, or b) the real capabilities of the two ships, as distinct from assumptions made by professionals with an inevitably imperfect knowledge of their opponents?
They would, however, close with Prinz Eugen if Bismarck was engaged with Hood, Prince of Wales, or both.
My main point regarding the Kirishima as a comparative was more “WW I vs WW II design”
So why did you explicitly mention plunging fire as the reason for the WW1 design's inferiority, given that plunging fire was irrelevent to the outcome at both Denmark Strait and Lee's Action?
Sorry I should've spelled it Bearing, not Baring. But since I said Holland was turning to bring his aft guns to bare it was obvious what I meant.
At 16,200 yards Bismarck's 15" AP rounds would penetrate about 17" of armor, according to "German Capital Ships of WWII found on the, http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.php
That could theoretically penetrate any of the armor on Hood, including barbettes, turrets, main belt, or traverse bulkheads, depending on what angle they struck the armor. Prince Eugen's 8" AP rounds could penetrate about 5" at that range, causing damage to most of more lightly armored areas of the ship. If she didn't blow up when she did she's going to get Swiss cheesed now.
With an ammo fire burning between the stacks while the ship is steaming at 28 knots into the wind the fire would spread aft to the boat deck, and down onto the weather deck, endangering the 4" AA guns on that level. The fire illuminates the ship making it an easier target. All the while it keeps damaging the ship.
See above. Bismarck could penetrate Hood's armor at the range where she blow up. This is a strange discussion because the most likely cause of Hood's destruction was a penetration of ether her aft 4" or 15" magazines. It's hard to argue that something couldn't happen if it happened in fact.
Correct, but they didn't stop, they were ongoing. Then Y turret jammed meaning that she couldn't reply in retreat and would only have max 6 guns if she's still in the fight.
What it has to do with it is Hood's only reasonable chance to survive is the battle has to end before something else happens to blow them up. If they don't blow up but stay in the fight, she still gets demolished, and the POW isn't an effective wingman. Ether Holland makes smoke and disengages at that moment, and the Germans let them go, or the Germans disengage, and Holland lets them go. Those are both unlikely outcomes. Holland thinks he has the advantage and in the process of fully engaging by bringing his aft guns to bear. Lutjens would've loved to do that, but he thought the battle was being forced on him and he had no alternative but to fight it out.
If Hood is reduced to a floating wreak Bismarck would turn her attention to POW. That would make the reliability of her guns very important. If POW loses the fight than Hood is lost. So, for Hood to live Bismarck has to break off the battle.
Yes, they would, but by the time they closed the range the battle would be over one way or the other. If Bismarck is still around Norfolk & Suffolk will keep their distance.