WI Hitler was arrested and deposed in 20 July 1944 instead of assassinated?

Eurofed

Banned
1939? And stick with the moron Rudolph Hess as Fuhrer?:eek:

Arrgghhh. :mad:

Since 1938-39, Goring was the publicy-anointed vice-Fuhrer and designated successor, with large personal popularity and strong ties with the army and economic elites. Hess was a glorified personal secretary to Hitler and nominal deputy head of the party bureaucracy, with no personal power base whatsoever. If I could have 1€ for every time that this common ASB misconception makes me nuts...
 
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Arrgghhh. :mad:

Since 1938-39, Goring was the publicy-anointed vice-Fuhrer and designated successor, with large personal popularity and strong ties with the army and economic elites. Hess was a glorified personal secretary to Hitler and nominal deputy head of the party bureaucracy, with no personal power base whatsoever.

But he WOULD be fun to deal with.

So easy to hypnotise. :)
 
Arrgghhh. :mad:

Since 1938-39, Goring was the publicy-anointed vice-Fuhrer and designated successor, with large personal popularity and strong ties with the army and economic elites. Hess was a glorified personal secretary to Hitler and nominal deputy head of the party bureaucracy, with no personal power base whatsoever.

This is going off anecdotal... but I have family that did make travels with the OKW. Hess had huge disagreements with Himmler, and Goering over the totality of the Nuremberg laws which where used to strip the jews of their German citizenship. He wrote them as party secretary but had originally been in league with Schjat (economics minister, forigve the spelling I don't have it with me) and Neurath (foreign minister) over certain elements. The economics department thought that jews where useful small business people and important to financing the growth of the German economy and war economy, Neurath thought that the laws being overly harsh and needless bloodshed was damaging Germany's image abroad (it was one step in all but eliminating the setting up of any anti communist alliance which conservative governments (like Britain) might have been interested in)
Hess tried to slip in a provision where Jew's (such as they where defined) who had served honorably in WW1 (either one decoration, or a letter of recommendation could be submitted by an officer they served under) and their direct descendants (which was essentially a huge portion of the Jewish population) would be "pardoned" and allowed to keep their German citizenship in recognition of their service.
Himmler in particular railed against him for being too soft on "jews who grew fat during the turnip winter"... although Hess was only seeking to make an exception for those who had been in the trenches.
Being a nasty political operator, Himmler and Goring deftly outmaneuvered Hess and got their way and continued to tag team with each other against him, increasing his marginalization (despite Hitler naming him 2nd in line for fuhrer in 1939)
 

Eurofed

Banned
This is going off anecdotal... but I have family that did make travels with the OKW. Hess had huge disagreements with Himmler, and Goering over the totality of the Nuremberg laws which where used to strip the jews of their German citizenship. He wrote them as party secretary but had originally been in league with Schjat (economics minister, forigve the spelling I don't have it with me) and Neurath (foreign minister) over certain elements. The economics department thought that jews where useful small business people and important to financing the growth of the German economy and war economy, Neurath thought that the laws being overly harsh and needless bloodshed was damaging Germany's image abroad (it was one step in all but eliminating the setting up of any anti communist alliance which conservative governments (like Britain) might have been interested in)
Hess tried to slip in a provision where Jew's (such as they where defined) who had served honorably in WW1 (either one decoration, or a letter of recommendation could be submitted by an officer they served under) and their direct descendants (which was essentially a huge portion of the Jewish population) would be "pardoned" and allowed to keep their German citizenship in recognition of their service.
Himmler in particular railed against him for being too soft on "jews who grew fat during the turnip winter"... although Hess was only seeking to make an exception for those who had been in the trenches.
Being a nasty political operator, Himmler and Goring deftly outmaneuvered Hess and got their way and continued to tag team with each other against him, increasing his marginalization (despite Hitler naming him 2nd in line for fuhrer in 1939)

BW, no question that Hess would have made a nicer (if kinda mentally instable) Fuhrer. My point is that he had little to none personal power base apart from Hitler's fleeting patronage, and my annoyance is with the ones that mistake first in line for succession as President and Chancellor (Goring) and second in line in the party bureaucracy totem pole (Hess).
 
If Hitler is removed before 1941 how about Nazis agreeing to let Hess "play" Fuhrer while a junta of Goering, Goebbels, Himmler etc. runs the State?
Or if Hitler is removed later during War is it possibble that Germany could be split to "Loyalists" (aka Nazis) and "Rebels" (aka German Resistance)?
 
If Hitler is removed before 1941 how about Nazis agreeing to let Hess "play" Fuhrer while a junta of Goering, Goebbels, Himmler etc. runs the State?
Or if Hitler is removed later during War is it possibble that Germany could be split to "Loyalists" (aka Nazis) and "Rebels" (aka German Resistance)?
The opposition to the Loyalists would probably call themselves some form of Nationalists, saying they were loyal to Germany, above the Nazi regime.
 
A civil war in the heartland of Germany during WWII could dramatically alter the course of the war...

Depends. The army is still occudpied with fighting outside of Germany. Therefore, the primary forces in Germany proper would be

-SA
-SS
-Police (since 1933 reshaped toward Nazism)
-Gestapo
-reserves

There's more Nazis with weapons then Non-Nazis supporting the coup. If Hitler still lives, they'll liberate him and nothing much should change - albeit some more Germans will die. If Hitler is dead, however, who should they fight for? In this case, generals/war heroes as figureheads should make quite a difference. After all, who would die for Goering, Himmler, Goebbels or Hess?
 
BW, no question that Hess would have made a nicer (if kinda mentally instable) Fuhrer. My point is that he had little to none personal power base apart from Hitler's fleeting patronage, and my annoyance is with the ones that mistake first in line for succession as President and Chancellor (Goring) and second in line in the party bureaucracy totem pole (Hess).

Hess lost his allies in the government in the late 1930's because Himmler and Goering put aside their personal differences to get him out of the picture. The acension of Ribbentrop and firing of Schjatt all but eliminated his key friends in the government (and Papen leaving the country didn't help him either)
Hess's craziness is so hard to quantify. In a barbarossa delayed/barbarossa cancelled scenario his role might change as Goering gets disgraced after the BOB and his failure to stop night bombings. After the failure to capture Moscow more cliques developed where he could have made new alliances and used the power of his position (which Bormann had no problem using like an iron hammer it should be noted) to steer military and political policy in his direction which was less batshit insane than his master
 
Stauffenberg- "He Joe, we have Adolf here for you if you end the war."

Stalin- "Give him to me, I love what he's done with the mustache"


In my opinion, it would work. Maybe they can arrest him then shoot him. I think it might be better for the Germans strategically, one of the main flaws of the Nazis were that Hitler believed he was a military genius, when he was not.
He believed in fighting to the last man, no retreats. A strategy that ultimately failed him.
With the Military in command essentially, they can keep the Allies at bay in hedge country in Normandy. They might also be able to slow down the Soviets.
Rommel would likely be put in charge of the Armies, since he despised Hitler. The Death Camps would be put to an end as soon as the SS was disposed of. Civil War though deep within Germany would ensue between the Army and the SS.
Maybe by the end of the month, they would call for a ceasefire to discuss surrender.
Likely post war Germany...

Germany keeps Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Denmark. Italy is to be returned Libya. Somalia and Ethiopia will remain in Allied hands. The Vichy Government will still retain control. In southern france.
As for the Eastern Front, I am not sure weather or not Stalin would be willing to surrender, but if peace with the Western Allies is made, by the time Operation Bagration came along, it would be stopped in its tracks with the military in command.
I could see possibly after a massive stalemate on the Eastern Front, the Germans would use their old WWI strategy to win in Russia. Take some land, hold it for a while, then move on.
This might cause the Russians to sue for a Ceasefire along the Ribbentrop-Molotov Agreement in 1939, or a Brest-Litovsk Style treaty.

In the Post-War, I see a lot of happier Germans, Germany won't be split and a Cold War between Germany/Western Allies Vs. The Soviet Union occur.

With the war in Europe over though almost a year earlier, they can send troops to the Japanese and the War in Japan would likely end on the same way it did IOTL.
 
Stauffenberg- "He Joe, we have Adolf here for you if you end the war."

Stalin- "Give him to me, I love what he's done with the mustache"


In my opinion, it would work. Maybe they can arrest him then shoot him. I think it might be better for the Germans strategically, one of the main flaws of the Nazis were that Hitler believed he was a military genius, when he was not.
He believed in fighting to the last man, no retreats. A strategy that ultimately failed him.
With the Military in command essentially, they can keep the Allies at bay in hedge country in Normandy. They might also be able to slow down the Soviets.
Rommel would likely be put in charge of the Armies, since he despised Hitler. The Death Camps would be put to an end as soon as the SS was disposed of. Civil War though deep within Germany would ensue between the Army and the SS.
Maybe by the end of the month, they would call for a ceasefire to discuss surrender.
Likely post war Germany...

Germany keeps Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Denmark. Italy is to be returned Libya. Somalia and Ethiopia will remain in Allied hands. The Vichy Government will still retain control. In southern france.
As for the Eastern Front, I am not sure weather or not Stalin would be willing to surrender, but if peace with the Western Allies is made, by the time Operation Bagration came along, it would be stopped in its tracks with the military in command.
I could see possibly after a massive stalemate on the Eastern Front, the Germans would use their old WWI strategy to win in Russia. Take some land, hold it for a while, then move on.
This might cause the Russians to sue for a Ceasefire along the Ribbentrop-Molotov Agreement in 1939, or a Brest-Litovsk Style treaty.

In the Post-War, I see a lot of happier Germans, Germany won't be split and a Cold War between Germany/Western Allies Vs. The Soviet Union occur.

With the war in Europe over though almost a year earlier, they can send troops to the Japanese and the War in Japan would likely end on the same way it did IOTL.

Treskow's master was Kluge. Kluge would take over the armies (unlike Rommel he was actually in the resistance as opposed to the occasional flirt)... the fanatical Nazi generals, despite some of them being skilled commanders would have to be liquidated to prevent any possible counter coup... notably Guderian, Schoerner and Model would have to go. If Rommel played ball he could stay on to command the west with orders to fall back to the west wall and dig in, whilst similar orders would bring the ost armies to at least the bug river if not the vistula which would eliminate most of the curbstomping from bargration or at least delay it suitably
Stalin after such an easy landgrab would take some time to bring all his forces up to the new line and set up artillery and ammo dumps... but he wouldn't accept peace... this sort of scenario makes WW3 MORE likely because it saves him having to fight Model and Hossbach (where despite overall Soviet Success, they inflicted hundreds of thousands of casaulties that brought the red army closer to its manpower limits)
 
According to the Valkyrie plan when Hitler was out of the picture (either assassinated or arrested and false news of his incapacitatiin were spread) the conspirators would proceed with neutralising the rest of the Nazi leadership in Berlin... Assuming that Himmlerm Goering etc. are removed this leaves us with conspirators in charge of Berlin and Germany... But what about the remaining Generals fighting in various fronts? Would they support the new Government or defect and become rogue threatening that way the War?
 

Typo

Banned
Stauffenberg- "He Joe, we have Adolf here for you if you end the war."

Stalin- "Give him to me, I love what he's done with the mustache"


In my opinion, it would work. Maybe they can arrest him then shoot him. I think it might be better for the Germans strategically, one of the main flaws of the Nazis were that Hitler believed he was a military genius, when he was not.
He believed in fighting to the last man, no retreats. A strategy that ultimately failed him.
With the Military in command essentially, they can keep the Allies at bay in hedge country in Normandy. They might also be able to slow down the Soviets.
Rommel would likely be put in charge of the Armies, since he despised Hitler. The Death Camps would be put to an end as soon as the SS was disposed of. Civil War though deep within Germany would ensue between the Army and the SS.
Maybe by the end of the month, they would call for a ceasefire to discuss surrender.
Likely post war Germany...

Germany keeps Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Denmark. Italy is to be returned Libya. Somalia and Ethiopia will remain in Allied hands. The Vichy Government will still retain control. In southern france.
As for the Eastern Front, I am not sure weather or not Stalin would be willing to surrender, but if peace with the Western Allies is made, by the time Operation Bagration came along, it would be stopped in its tracks with the military in command.
I could see possibly after a massive stalemate on the Eastern Front, the Germans would use their old WWI strategy to win in Russia. Take some land, hold it for a while, then move on.
This might cause the Russians to sue for a Ceasefire along the Ribbentrop-Molotov Agreement in 1939, or a Brest-Litovsk Style treaty.

In the Post-War, I see a lot of happier Germans, Germany won't be split and a Cold War between Germany/Western Allies Vs. The Soviet Union occur.

With the war in Europe over though almost a year earlier, they can send troops to the Japanese and the War in Japan would likely end on the same way it did IOTL.

ummmm no, Germany would actually need to win the war to get those terms, those terms are beyond what Britain would accept in 1940.

Germany loses to the Soviets no matter what by July 1944, which is why there was a coup in the first place.
 
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