WI: Hitler sides with the SA over the Reichwehr

Don Quijote

Banned
I'm going to be a contrarian and claim the SA could have won, under the right circumstances, especially if they strike first, enjoy the element of surprise and benefit from confusion among Reichswehr. Hell, some army units might simply obey 'orders' and stay in their barracks.

In any case, see the opening act of the Spanish Civil War about how a professional military can screw up.

Speaking of which, nobody seems to consider that an SA powergrabbing attempt might give us an early-access beta version of the Spanish Civil War, but set in Germany, instead of a clear-cut result one way or the other...
That's an iffy comparison though, since the Spanish Civil War was essentially a military uprising. There were professional soldiers on both sides, most of the 'mob charges' tended to be those of Republican militias against hardened Nationalist veterans of Morocco.
 
I'm going to be a contrarian and claim the SA could have won, under the right circumstances, especially if they strike first, enjoy the element of surprise and benefit from confusion among Reichswehr. Hell, some army units might simply obey 'orders' and stay in their barracks.

In any case, see the opening act of the Spanish Civil War about how a professional military can screw up.

Speaking of which, nobody seems to consider that an SA powergrabbing attempt might give us an early-access beta version of the Spanish Civil War, but set in Germany, instead of a clear-cut result one way or the other...
I could see quite a few Reichwehr officers to go over to the SA (I'm looking at you Reichenau, Keitel, and Model).
 
Some of them might, although as far as Keitel goes it is not such a gain for the new German Army. But I'm talking about change of attitude inside new military. Any change in management, especially a violent one, often leads to disdain for all "old ways" and ideas of the previous regime, even if they were actually good and tested. E.g. logistics, military staff work is not as "sexy" as gloriously leading the troops, so IMO it will remain mostly a domain of the trained professionals. But the new commanders, mostly from SA and SS, might not be interested in listening to logistics experts who show a large gap in their "brilliant" plans.

Let's look ahead to 1939. This new army is deficient in staff work, has a mechanised army inferior to OTL, & other defects. It takes weeks longer to defeat Poland.

The French launch their planned October offensive circa 5 Oct, Hitler allows a frontal counter attack, the French with their better artillery manage to defeat that and start resolving their command problems.

The Belgians and Dutch accelerate their mobilisation. When Hitler launches his winter offensive the better prepared Allies defeat the less capable National Socialist army in a bloody months long campaign. The front stabilised in Belgium or northern France & the Allies settle in to retrain their armies and complete rearming.

There is no German army to intervene & overthrow the nazi government. When the Allies start a series of limited offensives in 1941 the NS Army can't cope. In the winter of 42 the Allies start their killer offensives, the Red Army attacks in the east. At the end of April 42 Hitler shoots himself in a bunker as free Polish armies close in from both directions.
 
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What examples would you use to back this up? The French or Russian Revolution? Whilst these started with mob methods, they very much depended on large swathes of the military either being inactive or switching to their side to achieve success.

That simply isn't going to happen in this scenario.

Actually my point was while it CAN happen, (and has) it's unlikely in this case and very specifically situationally based. While both cited cases can be "examples" of mob/popular uprising successfully changing a government as you not it take some inaction/failure or collusion from the military at some point to succeed which you also note and also I don't see it happening in this scenario as the military has far to much to lose and no obvious gain.

There's also the personalities involved which I doubt favor any such outcome as Hitler was looking to consolidate power while Rhom was looking to do the same eventually which was not an outcome that Hitler could see, (and frankly I can't either) any advantage in. Other than the hard core SA members who were either turned or eliminated at the time the rest were in it for the 'thrill' rather than the actual 'cause' and it showed in how little of a fight they put up.

I suspect the rank-and-file would NOT in fact have been able to be called upon to reverse this specifically because they weren't really anything BUT a general 'mob' organization with little direct control on par with the military. Any attempts to organize and coordinate such an effort would fail because the "organization" would fall apart and the plan would be leaked unlike the revers where it was tightly compartmentalized, organized and carried out with total surprise.

Randy
 
Speaking of which, nobody seems to consider that an SA powergrabbing attempt might give us an early-access beta version of the Spanish Civil War, but set in Germany, instead of a clear-cut result one way or the other...

Not unless you get part of the military to opt into the SA's side which is the only way to 'sustain' a Civil War. Otherwise the SA is plowed under in a few weeks at best by superior organization and training. Even with some sort of 'decapitation' attack to start with. And keep in mind that Rhom wasn't looking for chaos so much as power and an outright Civil War isn't going to achieve that but rather the opposite. Further none of the internal factions wanted outside intervention which was still technically on the table under the ToV.

And as Carl Schwamberger points out the SA is nothing to base a 'real' military on and that's very clear here which give even less reason to even consider this scenario for Hitler. Even if he 'wins' he now has an even more powerful 'rival' and a far less effective and organized 'military' with which to both control and defend the country with. It has no real merits from Hitler's POV and far to many defects.

Randy
 
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