What if Hitler decided to support Ernst Rohm's demands that the SA and the Reichwehr be merged into a Nazi revolutionary army as opposed to purging the SA? What happens next? Do we see a German civil war as the Reichwehr launches a coup to avert being forcibly merged with an "undisciplined mob of street fighters?
WI: Hitler sides with the SA over the Reichwehr
The Reichwehr consisted of some 100,000 men well trained versus 3.000.000 troops who mostly paraded ore where use to intimated and beat up people, i see both the political and military leaders launch a coup and remove Hitler from power.
Loghain
Banned
That Eh 1:30 numbers. This isnt going to be as easy as you think.
Imho it depends on who makes first move. I dont think Reichsweer would think Hitler being crazy to do it. so it depends who moves faster.
Be amazed how much difference it makes when you have currently trained professional officers leading men under full discipline vs a bunch of street thugs.
The is a reason that serious civil disturbances stop as soon as real professional troops appear (when you are only allowed to have 100,000 troops, they tend to be VERY good).
As an outstanding example take look at what happened in LA during the 1992 King Riots. Complete chaos for three days, cops weren't even managing to hold a perimeter. Day Four 1,500 Marines out of Camp Pendleton and 2,000 troops from 7th ID arrived. Didn't fire a shot. Rioting and attack just flat stopped. Burning city, attacks on Korean businesses, and major street gangs stealing whatever wasn't nailed down. EIGHT HOURS later, first Humvees it the street, virtual full stop.
Even the Crips and Bloods, who are at least as hard core (and likely far more professional AND better armed) than the SA, took one look and decided not to "fuck with The Proud".
The SA were bullies (hell, the entire Nazi Party was nothing but bullies), the Reichwehr would have made them their bitches.
Loghain
Banned
Why is why it would be important to strike first. Deny Reichwehr the opportunity to use their strenghts, which is discipline organisation teamwork, 500 men vs 15000 will defend better than 100 vs 3000 due to scaling being astronomical in regards to organized formation.
I agree that if reichwehr strikes first it wins but if SA manages to for example overrun some soldiers before they realize what is going it massively improves their odds.
Furthmore you cant compare modern day with the 1930s Since the LA Riots there was intimidation factor. The same factor would actually worked in favor of SA due to strenght in numbers.
imagine the russian hordes narrative except true.
And how would this be done throughout Germany? I imagine the Freikorps, police, and others would open fire upon the socialist thugs in shorts, and I don't see a mob of millions of people as somehow getting the element of surprise on the army.
Problem is that Hitler having merge the Reichwehr with the SA has to face a person called Rohm who might see himself leading Germany instead of Hitler and without a Reichwehr to back Hitler, Rohm might be able to take over.
Rohm seems to have been relatively loyal. He simply was loyal to the earlier, more socialistic versions of National Socialism before it went all personality cult. He had s power base so could talk to Hitler on more equal terms. Obviously Hitler couldn't be having that, though he did feel unsure about it and had to be prodded by the big name Nazis who later rose to prominence.
Hitler will also have lost the support of the rich and powerful industrial if he allowed the SA to take over the Reichwehr, they favored the Reichwehr over the SA.
Well yes. They were the army. Besides, the SA were against the rich and powerful.
A lot depends of the way the merge would be done. WI Hitler promises the generals he would deal with SA and then launches the Night of the Long Knives not against Rohm, but against military top brass? Decapitated Reichsweh might be paralyzed by indecision and confusion. Hindenburg might be isolated or/and discreetly eliminated, perhaps with blaming generals for his death. Such an operation would have been much harder to do (and kept in secret), but Heydrich and Himmler might be able to do it. So let's say the manged to take over and quell any resistance.
On the long term, though, I agree it would be a heavy blow to German military power. Many highly trained professionals in the new army would be distrusted and nominations for loyalty over competence would be a norm. Moreover, actually being a part of the Reichswehr might become a career block. While many SA-Men were ex-soldiers, I doubt many of them had been high ranking officers and they would love to lord over their former superiors or people like them. The best traditions of the German military - professionalism, discipline, order and especially military staff work would be disregarded. After all, those old generals knew nothing about modern war - they lost the Great War, didn't they?
Political consequences would be significant. Conservative right, industrialists and businessmen would turn away from Hitler as a dangerous radical, more or less a communist with an anti-Semitic obsession. A lot of their money would be transferred abroad instead of supporting Nazi policy. Then what - nationalization of factories and other businesses? That would kill German economy, if only by cutting it off from any foreign credits and cooperation.
On the long term, though, I agree it would be a heavy blow to German military power. Many highly trained professionals in the new army would be distrusted and nominations for loyalty over competence would be a norm. Moreover, actually being a part of the Reichswehr might become a career block. While many SA-Men were ex-soldiers, I doubt many of them had been high ranking officers and they would love to lord over their former superiors or people like them. The best traditions of the German military - professionalism, discipline, order and especially military staff work would be disregarded. After all, those old generals knew nothing about modern war - they lost the Great War, didn't they?
Political consequences would be significant. Conservative right, industrialists and businessmen would turn away from Hitler as a dangerous radical, more or less a communist with an anti-Semitic obsession. A lot of their money would be transferred abroad instead of supporting Nazi policy. Then what - nationalization of factories and other businesses? That would kill German economy, if only by cutting it off from any foreign credits and cooperation.
Good point. Might be seen like the Purges of Stalin. And I can't imagine the Navy or Air Force being too happy about it. Maybe a couple squadrons (actually, did they have an air force back then?) heads over to Austria. As for Hitler, he will be out of office without Hindenburg. The Reichstag will come together to do something about this if they survive the purge (better chance since the Nazis are now working on the fly) and the Rhineland may stay demilitarized or we see somem German areas trying to break off or rise in revolt. Revolt is more likely.
Redbeard
Banned
If it comes to a confrontation the Reichswehr IMHO will have overwhelming odds. Not just because they are so much better trained, led and equipped, but also because they can be quickly expanded. The whole point about the Reichswehr was that each soldier had the potential of an NCO, each NCO of an officer etc. It wouldn't take long for the Reichswehr to grow from 100.000 to a million men reasonably well trained and led men. At least good enough for what the SA would be able to put up with.
Even if claiming to have 3.000.000 million men many were just middle aged men finding it advantageous for their local position and career to get a "brownshirt". Also remark how little trouble it actually caused to "dismantle" the SA as an independent factor after the Ling Knives Night.
But even if it had managed to win the contest with the Reichswehr, probably due to some kind of indecisiveness in the Reichswehr leadership, the Reich in the following years would have been very much different. No heavy industrial expansion and rearmament, but rather Pol Pot like madness.
After a couple of years of chaos the neighboring states and a large number of German exiles decide to clear up the mess and that is that with nazism.
Röhm you f....... amateur, why couldn't you do better?!
Even if claiming to have 3.000.000 million men many were just middle aged men finding it advantageous for their local position and career to get a "brownshirt". Also remark how little trouble it actually caused to "dismantle" the SA as an independent factor after the Ling Knives Night.
But even if it had managed to win the contest with the Reichswehr, probably due to some kind of indecisiveness in the Reichswehr leadership, the Reich in the following years would have been very much different. No heavy industrial expansion and rearmament, but rather Pol Pot like madness.
After a couple of years of chaos the neighboring states and a large number of German exiles decide to clear up the mess and that is that with nazism.
Röhm you f....... amateur, why couldn't you do better?!
Himmler and Heydrich, much as they detested the military, would have sided with them rather than the SA.
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