WI: Hitler launches Operation Sea Lion without air superiority?

WI Hitler tried land invasion without air superiority?

  • It would have been successful

    Votes: 11 3.2%
  • It would have failed

    Votes: 334 96.8%

  • Total voters
    345
If Germans have not air superiority most of Kriegsmarine would be sent to bottom of English Canal before it could had reached Southern England. And then resto of German Wehrmacht would had been massacred.

Even if Germans would had been air superiority, I doubt that it would had been succesful.
 
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Closest I could find
 
Even if Germans would had been air superiority, I doubt that it would had been succesful.
There's no need for doubt, even if they have airsuperiority, the LW needs to provide CAS to the invading forces, keep the remaining RAF fighters and bombers at bay, and attack the RN in such a way that it can't interdict the shippings across the Channel*. Now if they achieve that (which they won't, because they don't have the numbers to do so), there's still a problem. The LW doesn't fly at night, but RN does sail. So it's game over after a few nights.

* this not only means that they have to achieve mission kills for the missions the RN send from bases outside the Channel, but they also have too neutralize the forces of the RN which are based in the Channel ports. And that alone is more than the KM had available.
 
If I remember right the queen and princesses also practiced with tommyguns in the gardens of buckingham palace. Now that would be an image…,,,,,
Did you know that the [then] queen's childhood nickname had been 'Buffy'? Picture her staking Nazi vampires...
(There's got to be possibility for at least a comic-book storyline on this concept, I think.)
 
Did you know that the [then] queen's childhood nickname had been 'Buffy'? Picture her staking Nazi vampires...
(There's got to be possibility for at least a comic-book storyline on this concept, I think.)
There was an episode in Angel that was partly set in WW2 and included nazi-vampires on a U-boat.
 
There was an episode in Angel that was partly set in WW2 and included nazi-vampires on a U-boat.
That's a heck of a hyphenation right there. As my brain wants a "nazi-vampire" to be a vampire that feeds exclusively on Nazis. There's got to be short story that can be written about the clash between Nazi vampires and nazi-vampires.
 
That's a heck of a hyphenation right there. As my brain wants a "nazi-vampire" to be a vampire that feeds exclusively on Nazis. There's got to be short story that can be written about the clash between Nazi vampires and nazi-vampires.
The Angel-episode is this one:

There's a Nazi vampire who ate a nazi. And there are vampires who fight nazi's.
 
Sooooo....

Given that a lot of pop histories misrepresent this let me explain why Sea lion was in trouble both historically and in the OP.

1. The Royal Navy planned to swamp the sea lanes with about 50 Destroyers and a Battleship, all alongside numerous small craft. Based on historical loss rates (of ships per aircraft sortie) and historical attrition rates (of German aircraft attacking ships in a highly contested environment) the Germans just wouldn't be able to inflict enough naval losses to prevent massive shipping losses to the invasion fleet and likely the loss of most large naval assets dedicated to it. (assuming that the KM has it's arms twisted into committing naval assets.)

This likely doesn't prevent many, probably the bulk, of troops landing (based off a 1970s British war game) but leads to the second point.

2. The Germans have no consistent means of resupply for troops ashore (meaning shipping, landing craft, etc) nor do they have the ability to control the sea lanes or "approaches" to Southern England.

This means that the troops landed are extremely limited in regards to fuel, ammunition, food, water, parts and reinforcements.

Moreover, while the broad landing strategy likely ensures significant troops land, it also ensures that they are separate and minimally supportive of each other.

--

In short, the Germans lose much or perhaps most of their water craft inventory, likely take heavy losses at sea AND have the divisions they manage to land -say, 3ish- cut off and lost, possibly more.

The Luftwaffe and fighter command likely smash each other. The maximum effort from both during the Dunkirk evacuation gives an idea of loss numbers, and it isn't pretty. The engagements over the channel at the start of just before the battle of Britain give an idea of the loss ratios. Given that this is going to last longer then the Dunkirk evacuation, I wouldn't want to be a pilot or air crewman for anybody involved.

The British, for their part, probably have a division worth of losses at least in savage and desperate beach front and counter airborne fighting, in addition to whichever R class BB is committed and numerous DDs and light craft.

Anyways, https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/members/peterpandude85.93444/ , hope that makes sense.
 
What would have happened if Hitler launched an amphibious assault on the south coast of Britain without using the Luftwaffe first to try to take out military targets/air bases in Britain, the failure of which was the primary reason why Hitler didn’t attempt a land invasion?


Would he have been successful?

To paraphrase from the Admiralty from Robinson's "Invasion 1940"

It would've been classed nowadays as a war crime. With over 80 plus destroyers (that's even without the ones who could be called off convoy duty to return to home waters and the battleship/cruisers) the firepower that the RN would've been able to unload onto the German beachhead from their guns and to destroy the barges carrying the men would've been absolute carnage.

Adml Raeder was beside himself with rage at Goering's tactics. He wasn't bothered about the RAF as the first hours of the operation would be done in the dark negating the RAF. He was more concerned with the RN and was angry why the Luftwaffe wasn't trying to destroy the RN's ships in it's ports.
 
To paraphrase from the Admiralty from Robinson's "Invasion 1940"

It would've been classed nowadays as a war crime. With over 80 plus destroyers (that's even without the ones who could be called off convoy duty to return to home waters and the battleship/cruisers) the firepower that the RN would've been able to unload onto the German beachhead from their guns and to destroy the barges carrying the men would've been absolute carnage.

Adml Raeder was beside himself with rage at Goering's tactics. He wasn't bothered about the RAF as the first hours of the operation would be done in the dark negating the RAF. He was more concerned with the RN and was angry why the Luftwaffe wasn't trying to destroy the RN's ships in it's ports.
Why would it have been classed as a “war crime”, any nation has the right to defend itself from invasion, now if the RN decided to ignore the Germans surrendering when confronted by the RN is full fury then it would be a crime, but if it’s just killing them all due to Hitler’s stubbornness and arrogance, that’s fair game I would have thought?
 
Why would it have been classed as a “war crime”, any nation has the right to defend itself from invasion, now if the RN decided to ignore the Germans surrendering when confronted by the RN is full fury then it would be a crime, but if it’s just killing them all due to Hitler’s stubbornness and arrogance, that’s fair game I would have thought?

That's the world we live in today I'm afraid.

The same folk who claim 'Bomber Harris' is a war criminal are the same ones who would undoubtedly have the First Sea Lord as a war criminal.

Those same folk who keep egging the Argies to take the UK to court over the sinking of the Belgrano.
 
That's the world we live in today I'm afraid.

The same folk who claim 'Bomber Harris' is a war criminal are the same ones who would undoubtedly have the First Sea Lord as a war criminal.
One targeted civilian areas, one would be attacking an invasion force, I fail to see how you equate the two at all.
 
One targeted civilian areas, one would be attacking an invasion force, I fail to see how you equate the two at all.

Re-read my post

I also mentioned this

Those same folk who keep egging the Argies to take the UK to court over the sinking of the Belgrano.
 
Had the suggested system to flood likely invasion beaches with oil & then ignite it already been set up by this point, or was it only still at the drawing-board stage?
 
Had the suggested system to flood likely invasion beaches with oil & then ignite it already been set up by this point, or was it only still at the drawing-board stage?
This is a legend, but it has a certain power:

"Is there a weapon temporal for me?" As he spoke there came a fleeting image of the man in Brest and of the warnings that he had received. He knew himself to be venturing among great risks, and he dismissed them from his mind.

The old man said: "I do not know, my son. Yet in past centuries the Church wielded one great cleansing weapon against heresy and infamy and all idolatry, a weapon that sweeps all before it, before which Anti-Christ and all the devils of the Pit recoil. That in past ages was the wisdom of the Church, my son. It is the wisdom still."

"What is this weapon temporal, then, father?"

The priest said: "It is fire."

He turned and faced Charles Simon. "So in the past the Holy Inquisition fought the battle against heresy, idolatry, and witchcraft, with faith in God and with the weapon temporal of fire. With that faith and that weapon they beat down the devils seeking to destroy the souls of men. Through that faith and that weapon men's souls may again be saved from all the dangers that beset them now."

The priest, facing him, laid his hand upon the designer's arm. "That is the truth of God," he said. "For the weak in faith there is an evidence." He dropped his voice and glanced round furtively. "Listen, my son, and I will tell you what I know."

In the dim light they bent together. "There was a brother of my Order," said the priest. "He was in Belgium, at Ostend, in September last, four months after the Occupation. For those four months he watched the Germans as they trained their troops to sail in barges for the invasion of England— men and guns and motor-bicycles and cars and tanks, and men again, all entering and disembarking from the barges. And finally, my son, the day arrived—September the 16th."

Charles said in a whisper: "What happened then?"

"God in His mercy laid His hand upon the English," the priest whispered in the dark. "They are not of the true Faith, but the Lord God is generous to all sincere misunderstanding, and He led them to the weapon temporal. The barges were three hours from land when British bombers of the Royal Air Force came upon them and dived on the barges, dropping upon them drums of oil and small incendiary bombs. Wave upon wave of aeroplanes came out from England strong in the power of the Lord, oil and incendiary bombs, oil and bombs. And the drums burst on the barges and the oil flowed into them, and the bombs set all on fire so that they blazed fiercely on the water, and the English dropped more oil into the flames."

Charles drew in his breath sharply.

The priest drew back a little. "For ten whole days the bodies came ashore upon the beaches," he said in a low tone. "Choked in the blazing oil, burned, suffocated, and drowned in their vile sins and infamy. Hundreds upon hundreds of them, every day, and the Germans buried them among the sand-hills of the beaches like dead animals, that none might know how they had met their end. Yet it was known all over Belgium and all through the German armies of the Netherlands within a day."

There was a short silence. "Before that power of fire all powers of heresy, idolatry, and witchcraft must recoil," the old man said. "It is not given to us to understand the choice of the Lord's instruments, why He revealed His mercy to the English rather than to us, any more than it is given to us to understand His choice of the Hebrew race in ages past. I only know that by that temporal power the Germans suffered a defeat, the first that they have suffered in this war. Before that power the powers of Mithras were thrown back."

He bent close again. "There was a mutiny,'' he said in a low tone. "A mutiny in the German Army, because the Nazis ordered that the troops should sail again for England. And there was mutiny ... it is true what I say. A hundred officers and men were shot in Antwerp at the rifle-range on September the 29th. And after that, and gradually, the troops were moved away."

They turned and resumed their pacing up and down. "The lesson of the ages has been taught again," the priest said quietly. "No other weapon purges evil from the earth and rids men from their bondage to the powers of darkness. Only the simple elementals can avail against the elemental foe— faith in the Power of God and in the cleansing power of fire."

-- Most Secret, Nevil Shute
 
This is a legend, but it has a certain power:

"Is there a weapon temporal for me?" As he spoke there came a fleeting image of the man in Brest and of the warnings that he had received. He knew himself to be venturing among great risks, and he dismissed them from his mind.

The old man said: "I do not know, my son. Yet in past centuries the Church wielded one great cleansing weapon against heresy and infamy and all idolatry, a weapon that sweeps all before it, before which Anti-Christ and all the devils of the Pit recoil. That in past ages was the wisdom of the Church, my son. It is the wisdom still."

"What is this weapon temporal, then, father?"

The priest said: "It is fire."

He turned and faced Charles Simon. "So in the past the Holy Inquisition fought the battle against heresy, idolatry, and witchcraft, with faith in God and with the weapon temporal of fire. With that faith and that weapon they beat down the devils seeking to destroy the souls of men. Through that faith and that weapon men's souls may again be saved from all the dangers that beset them now."

The priest, facing him, laid his hand upon the designer's arm. "That is the truth of God," he said. "For the weak in faith there is an evidence." He dropped his voice and glanced round furtively. "Listen, my son, and I will tell you what I know."

In the dim light they bent together. "There was a brother of my Order," said the priest. "He was in Belgium, at Ostend, in September last, four months after the Occupation. For those four months he watched the Germans as they trained their troops to sail in barges for the invasion of England— men and guns and motor-bicycles and cars and tanks, and men again, all entering and disembarking from the barges. And finally, my son, the day arrived—September the 16th."

Charles said in a whisper: "What happened then?"

"God in His mercy laid His hand upon the English," the priest whispered in the dark. "They are not of the true Faith, but the Lord God is generous to all sincere misunderstanding, and He led them to the weapon temporal. The barges were three hours from land when British bombers of the Royal Air Force came upon them and dived on the barges, dropping upon them drums of oil and small incendiary bombs. Wave upon wave of aeroplanes came out from England strong in the power of the Lord, oil and incendiary bombs, oil and bombs. And the drums burst on the barges and the oil flowed into them, and the bombs set all on fire so that they blazed fiercely on the water, and the English dropped more oil into the flames."

Charles drew in his breath sharply.

The priest drew back a little. "For ten whole days the bodies came ashore upon the beaches," he said in a low tone. "Choked in the blazing oil, burned, suffocated, and drowned in their vile sins and infamy. Hundreds upon hundreds of them, every day, and the Germans buried them among the sand-hills of the beaches like dead animals, that none might know how they had met their end. Yet it was known all over Belgium and all through the German armies of the Netherlands within a day."

There was a short silence. "Before that power of fire all powers of heresy, idolatry, and witchcraft must recoil," the old man said. "It is not given to us to understand the choice of the Lord's instruments, why He revealed His mercy to the English rather than to us, any more than it is given to us to understand His choice of the Hebrew race in ages past. I only know that by that temporal power the Germans suffered a defeat, the first that they have suffered in this war. Before that power the powers of Mithras were thrown back."

He bent close again. "There was a mutiny,'' he said in a low tone. "A mutiny in the German Army, because the Nazis ordered that the troops should sail again for England. And there was mutiny ... it is true what I say. A hundred officers and men were shot in Antwerp at the rifle-range on September the 29th. And after that, and gradually, the troops were moved away."

They turned and resumed their pacing up and down. "The lesson of the ages has been taught again," the priest said quietly. "No other weapon purges evil from the earth and rids men from their bondage to the powers of darkness. Only the simple elementals can avail against the elemental foe— faith in the Power of God and in the cleansing power of fire."

-- Most Secret, Nevil Shute
I haven't read much, if anything, by Shute: Maybe that was a mistake on my part.
 
I have doubts whether OKH would even agree to it. Attempting it without air superiority is so obviously suicide that it wouldn't be surprising if they just refuse.
 
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