WI: Hitler isn't dominated by racial beliefs?

I don’t know if this has been touched on before but I didn’t see anything on the subject, so…

Adolf Hitler is today regarded by the vast majority of people as one of history’s villains, particularly for starting WWII and the Holocaust, and for the racial ideology that underpinned most of these decisions: the intrinsic supremacy of the Aryan race, Lebensraum, anti-Slavicism and a particularly virulent form of anti-Semitism.

Let’s say that Hitler doesn’t develop these ideas. Possibly it’s enough to have him meet a few different people and not read certain books and pamphlets. Perhaps young Adolf grows up listening to Mendelssohn instead of Wagner. Or maybe he has to be more psychologically stable and so a Chiroptys Galactica slightly tweaks his genetics.

Regardless, we get to, say, 1920 with history pretty much as in OTL; the Treaty of Versailles, the stab-in-the-back attitude among many Germans and a youngish corporal with a silly moustache. He has broadly the same political views – that is, nationalist, right-wing authoritarian, pro-military and anti-communist – but he is more pragmatic and isn’t ruled by the idea of racial supremacy. Maybe he is – for want of a better and less offensive word – casually anti-Semitic and anti-Slavic, but he doesn’t consider such a matter to be worth killing someone over. He is still capable of spellbindingly impassioned oratory – provided he has an issue to be impassioned about.

With these parameters in mind, I’d like some thoughts on the following issues:

  • Can Hitler still become a major political figure without being driven by a belief in Aryan supremacy and directing hatred toward Jews and similar groups?
  • What will Germany end up looking like? Left or right? Who’s up, who’s down and who’s flying around? And who is that magnificently fat man in a flying machine?
  • Do we get a World War II? Who allies with who and which lot win?
  • Does the toothbrush moustache remain fashionable?
Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Can Hitler still become a major political figure without being driven by a belief in Aryan supremacy and directing hatred toward Jews and similar groups?

Yes, given his oratorical abilities. Most Germans, at least initially, were somewhat turned off by his racial beliefs, but strongly supported his anti-Communist and revanchist/irredentist beliefs. The bigger question is whether whether he would, given that he believed he was sacrificing his interests in the greater interest of the final destruction of the international Judeo-Bolshevist conspiracy.

What will Germany end up looking like? Left or right? Who’s up, who’s down and who’s flying around? And who is that magnificently fat man in a flying machine?
If he comes to power (and probably if he doesn't): Some sort of militaristic right-wing government coming to power in Germany. The magnificently fat man can't hear you, he's too busy stuffing his mouth full of danishes.

Do we get a World War II? Who allies with who and which lot win?
Depends on what happens. Probably later than OTL, in any case. Germany gets Italy on its side faster. A more moderate Germany might be appealing to Spain (assuming the nationalists still win), Portugal, or any of a number of South American or Scandinavian nations. Germany might also be more likely to side with China, rather than Japan, in Asia. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact probably never happens (no negotiating with Communists!). It's a mixed bag who wins. Assuming an Anglo-French-Polish-Soviet alliance versus Germany-Italy-Spain-China-Scandinavia, the early war probably goes much as OTL. But with greater time to allow the USSR to rearm, the Germans might have a harder time of it in the east. But no racial policies and strong anti-Communism in the East helps a LOT. So would a China, victorious over Japan, opening a second front against the USSR in the Far East (although that might be borderline ASB).

Does the toothbrush moustache remain fashionable?
The Fashion Gestapo would like to have a word with you . . .
 
Pooh-Bah;2289571 [FONT=Times New Roman said:
With these parameters in mind, I’d like some thoughts on the following issues:[/FONT]

  • Can Hitler still become a major political figure without being driven by a belief in Aryan supremacy and directing hatred toward Jews and similar groups?


  • No. Anti-semitism was the core belief behind Nazism. What you're saying is an oxymoron, there can't be Nazism without anti-semitism, just as there cannon be communism without class struggle, religion without faith, fire without heat etc.

    Hitler could have become a communist and use his demagogic talent in the service of socialist revolution, but somehow I doubt communism would have appealed to him.

    [*]What will Germany end up looking like? Left or right? Who’s up, who’s down and who’s flying around? And who is that magnificently fat man in a flying machine?

    Cannot tell, without Nazis, everything would be different in Germany.

    [*]Do we get a World War II? Who allies with who and which lot win?

    Well, WWII was essentially a direct result of Hitler's expansionist foreign policy. Without Hitler as the leader of Nazi Germany, there would have been no WWII as we know it.

    [*]Does the toothbrush moustache remain fashionable?

    :) That's quite possible. The same goes to the name Adolf ;)
Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.

Timelines don't "repair" themselves, nothing is pre-determined. The version of history we saw was a result of every man's contribution to it. If Hitler had remained an unimportant clown entertaining people in Bavarian pubs, the whole world's history would have been radically altered - and nobody can say how exactly, there is an infinite room for speculation.
 
Hitler takes one look at Drexler's pamphlets and is disgusted.
He returns to his Reichswehr headquarters and a few weeks later almost all of the German Worker's Party is arrested. Hitler recieves a promotion and infiltrartes a number of socialist parties and turns them over to the Reichswehr.
He is head of the Aufklärungskommando of the Weimar govt when the Soviets invade Poland in 1940 and start off WW2.
 

General Zod

Banned
Well, WWII was essentially a direct result of Hitler's expansionist foreign policy. Without Hitler as the leader of Nazi Germany, there would have been no WWII as we know it.

There would still have been something much similar as Soviet Russia would have taken the role of Nazi Germany, and Germany that of Soviet Russia.
 
There would still have been something much similar as Soviet Russia would have taken the role of Nazi Germany, and Germany that of Soviet Russia.

That's highly improbable.

Stalin was an opportunist, not a crazy megalomaniac. Well, not as crazy megalomaniac as Hitler ;)

I am not saying there couldn't have been a war between Soviet Russia and the West, but I doubt it would have been anything as big as WW2.
 
Yes, anti-semitism, whil importante in otl hitlers world, it is not what got the nazis into power.
The probably singel most importante factor was the very strong anti-sosialisem. Hitler and the other nazi party speakers in the late 20`s and early 30`s did not speak much of anti-Semitism. Why, becauss it did not win votes or draw croweds. The nazi, contrary to popular belife did not finance itself maninly by economical support from bigg bussines, but by trainig political speakers and charging people for attending. They wear also very very good at mass party organisation.

Now anschluss and kicking poland in the pirogis, that was somthing everybody in germany whanted (more or less atlesst). This is not somthing unniquly nazi.
 

General Zod

Banned
Stalin was an opportunist, not a crazy megalomaniac. Well, not as crazy megalomaniac as Hitler ;)

True, but in this case, his (higher) paranoia would supply the (relatively little) amount of magalomania he lacked in comparison to Hitler. If Germany and the Western powers don't get estranged by late '30s, he would regard their closing ranks for an anti-Communist crusade as inevitable, and prepare a pre-emptive strike in Central and Eastern Europe, sometime in the early '40s. Which would favor the formation of such front, and cause Stalin to act even more aggressive towards countries like Finland, Poland, and Romania, and so on to WWII.

I am not saying there couldn't have been a war between Soviet Russia and the West, but I doubt it would have been anything as big as WW2.

Only in the sense that Europe vs. Stalin may or may not butterfly Japanese attack on the USA. In Europe the conflict would be just as big.
 
True, but in this case, his (higher) paranoia would supply the (relatively little) amount of magalomania he lacked in comparison to Hitler. If Germany and the Western powers don't get estranged by late '30s, he would regard their closing ranks for an anti-Communist crusade as inevitable, and prepare a pre-emptive strike in Central and Eastern Europe, sometime in the early '40s. Which would favor the formation of such front, and cause Stalin to act even more aggressive towards countries like Finland, Poland, and Romania, and so on to WWII.

This is interesting, actually. If Stalin thought that the rest of Europe would stand up to him, he would not attack. If the Western Europe did what it had done in our timeline (appeasement), he might get bold enough to blackmail/bully/attack the Baltic states, Poland and Romania.

I still think it would end in some alternate version of Cold War between Europe and much smaller Soviet bloc. America would stay isolationist or perhaps it would wage a war with Japan as in OTL.

Only in the sense that Europe vs. Stalin may or may not butterfly Japanese attack on the USA. In Europe the conflict would be just as big.

I don't think there would be any hot war - Stalin didn't believe he could take whole of Europe. Hitler was crazy enough to believe that and accidentally, he was right. If Stalin launched some sort of "Red Alert style" invasion of Europe, his forces would be stopped somewhere in Central Europe, then he'd be pushed back.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
If Hitler wasn't anti-semitic I doubt he would have become politically active, it was mostly his racial ideas that made him want to try politics, of course many of his other ideas would still be there; especially the idea that Germany need a great leader. Maybe he become a nationalistic newspaper agitator??
 
If Hitler wasn't anti-semitic I doubt he would have become politically active, it was mostly his racial ideas that made him want to try politics, of course many of his other ideas would still be there; especially the idea that Germany need a great leader. Maybe he become a nationalistic newspaper agitator??

Anti-Semitism had blanketed much of society in those years. The Nazis needed to support Aryan supremacy, with its anti-Semitic implications. The notions of disfranchisement, seizure of property, imprisonment and ultimately execution (aka Holocaust) all came AFTER Hitler took power. A different leader (or one with a different mindset) could have remained anti-Semitic yet allowed Jewish workers to contribute and retain property under controlled circumstances.

Look at racism in America. The proportion of blacks intimidated and relegated to substandard living was very large yet the proportion killed by the Klan was small.
 
I'm quite taken by the image of Hitler as a 'nationalistic newspaper agitator'. 'Controversial columnist Adolf Hitler'. I can see a breakfast table debate over his latest scathing critique of the government. It just seems to work.

I also found a Sino-German alliance quite intriguing. One wonders what Japan would do in such a situation.

A question. If Hitler did enter politics, would he be willing to start off as a backbencher in a major party and generally toe the party line? Or would he still head for a minor party over which he could exercise a major role in shaping it?
 
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