WI Hitler Flees to National Redoubt

After I got to the trial I just made crap up. National Redoubt was a real operation. Over 35,000 Allied POWS were already in the area ready for execution. I did mention the A-Bomb. The Redoubt was in occupied Austria. Its like if the Germans held Paris still and the allies nuked it, they would be nuking an allied city.


Also, I'm 14, so my mind can't comprehend this.
Hello Nickcvader,
There is nothing wrong about being not so well informed about history when one is fourteen.
Just to give you an impression how far off the mark some of your original post looked to me: The one thing in alternate history that the great majority of posters in this forum consider an out and out impossibility, the one military operation that is absolutely doomed to utter failure from the beginning, is the planned invasion of Great Britain by Germany in 1940, Operation Sea Lion. If you think that Sea Lion could succeed, and write that in this forum, you are going to attract massive amounts of scorn and derision, although the discussions here are otherwise fairly open and friendly.

Now, the idea that Hitler just says 'It wasn't me after all, it was Goering, I was being used as a puppet', and what is more important, succeeds with this flimsiest and most lame-brained of defenses, strikes me as even more unlikely than a succesful Sea Lion.:(:(:( Yes, I am sorry, it is really that bad. After showing to the world for twelve years that he is the absolute and unquestioned ruler of Germany Hitler makes the world believe that he really was not responsible for the Holocaust??? How could he ever find the merest pretence of a proof for that claim? Not the kind of "proof" that people like David Irving would accept, but anything that would impress an Allied judge? Simply impossible.
 
The bunker gets converted into a glowing crater in early August,
assuming they can hold out that long.

As CalBear pointed out, if the Allies were willing to nuke two cities full
of Japanese civilians (or firebomb Dresden, for that matter), then why
would they balk at dropping Fat Man on the bunker where Hitler himself
is hiding out?


Well, considering that the West had limited contact with Japan from the start, I doubt that they would see repercussions. If you fire in the center of Europe, it might cause droughts, and many many Americans would be affected with many Americans in or around the same area. Also, at the time, which my grandfather said, so many people would disagree firing a nuke in Central Europe, even if it was Hitler, and Japan was more obvious since they were...


-On an Island, so no Allied personnel would be wounded
-Not that many people had contact with Japan prior to the war
-Risk of war lasting for many more years


The reasons why they probably wouldn't bomb Germany with a nuke would be...

-Not isolated, thus affecting much of the surrounding areas
-Vital Farmlands in area
-Nuclear Weapons could affect neutral nations (Switzerland), as well as Allied nations (Italy)
-Many Americans in Italian regions nearby would be affected
-Over 1/4 of the American population at the time came from Central Europe, I doubt that would go well with them, even if Hitler was there.
-At the time, no one cared if Japan was bombed, but in Europe, many people have families, several concentration camps were in the area, as well as many POW Camps.
 

CalBear

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Well, considering that the West had limited contact with Japan from the start, I doubt that they would see repercussions. If you fire in the center of Europe, it might cause droughts, and many many Americans would be affected with many Americans in or around the same area. Also, at the time, which my grandfather said, so many people would disagree firing a nuke in Central Europe, even if it was Hitler, and Japan was more obvious since they were...


-On an Island, so no Allied personnel would be wounded
-Not that many people had contact with Japan prior to the war
-Risk of war lasting for many more years


The reasons why they probably wouldn't bomb Germany with a nuke would be...

-Not isolated, thus affecting much of the surrounding areas
-Vital Farmlands in area
-Nuclear Weapons could affect neutral nations (Switzerland), as well as Allied nations (Italy)
-Many Americans in Italian regions nearby would be affected
-Over 1/4 of the American population at the time came from Central Europe, I doubt that would go well with them, even if Hitler was there.
-At the time, no one cared if Japan was bombed, but in Europe, many people have families, several concentration camps were in the area, as well as many POW Camps.

I am amazed that, even after having been told, in some detail, that the scenario is not repairable, in any way, shape or form, that you continue to push out these sort of ideas.

I understand that you are 14, but you would, I hope, have read at least something on these subjects beyond the Wiki.

That being said, clearly you haven't done much research so...

Well, considering that the West had limited contact with Japan from the start, I doubt that they would see repercussions. Huh? Compared with the reaction of ending the War in Europe?

If you fire in the center of Europe, it might cause droughts BASED ON WHAT?! Go get a map of the U.S. and look up New Mexico

...and many many Americans would be affected with many Americans in or around the same area. Unlike detonating one is say... NEW MEXICO or NEVADA

Also, at the time, which my grandfather said, so many people would disagree firing a nuke in Central Europe, even if it was Hitler, and Japan was more obvious since they were... Well, your Grandfather must have been unusually well informed. Almost all Americans had no idea that a nuclear weapon was even possible


-On an Island, so no Allied personnel would be wounded - Well, this will be good news to the AMERICAN PoW KILLED at Hiroshima. (Be even better news to the American troops who were 600 YARDS away from an above ground test detonation).

-Not that many people had contact with Japan prior to the war -Which matters how?

-Risk of war lasting for many more years - Unlike Hitler and a band of devoted followers holed up in a National Redoubt with tons of supplies and masses of hostages (that was your scenario right?)


The reasons why they probably wouldn't bomb Germany with a nuke would be...

-Not isolated, thus affecting much of the surrounding areas -Huh? You are putting 2009 beliefs in the heads of 1945 people.

-Vital Farmlands in area -Alpine Redoubt. Might want to look up Alpine. Might also want to look up the amount of agricultural production from New Mexico, Colorado, Texas and Kansas in 1945.

-Nuclear Weapons could affect neutral nations (Switzerland), as well as Allied nations (Italy) - The United Stated detonated mulitiple nuclear weapons, above ground, INSIDE THE CONTINENTAL U.S. Again you are making a 2009 (or at least 1969) argument regarding 1945 events.

-Many Americans in Italian regions nearby would be affected -Unlike weapons detonated in New Mexico and Nevada.:rolleyes: People used to gather in Vegas to see the double flash of the above ground tests in the Nevada Test Site. (The Nevada Test site conducted ONE HUNDRED above ground tests).

-Over 1/4 of the American population at the time came from Central Europe, I doubt that would go well with them, even if Hitler was there. The United States 8th Air Force & RAF Bomber Command dropped 481,400 TONS of bombs over "Central Europe between June 1 & December 31, 1944 (ref: USSBS ETO edition). FOUR HUNDRED-EIGHTY ONE THOUSAND TONS OF BOMBS. What is one more?

-At the time, no one cared if Japan was bombed, but in Europe, many people have families, several concentration camps were in the area, as well as many POW Camps. 481,400 TONS of bombs dropped in six months.

This scenario is poorly thought out. That is okay. We have all posted thing that weren't as terrific as we hoped. However, trying to defend it won't make it better.

A word of advice: When you have fallen into a pit, the first thing to do is STOP SHOVELING.
 
Nickcvader, you might want to read this study I found through the WWII Forums:

"ULTRA and the myth of the German "National Redoubt."

This study investigates the creation of a mythical fortifications system called the German "National Redoubt" and the use of ULTRA to confirm its existence. The work includes a brief background of the Redoubt and examines how the state of intelligence at Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force helped turn enemy propaganda into "reality." The study addresses the influence of ULTRA intelligence at Supreme Headquarters during the final phase of the war in Europe. This study investigates whether SHAEF used ULTRA to confirm or deny intelligence gathered through conventional means.

This thesis concludes that General Eisenhower's Supreme Headquarters selectively used ULTRA during March and April 1945 to support strong preconceptions that an Alpine stronghold existed. SHAEF's failure to integrate ULTRA with other forms of intelligence was instrumental in building the myth of the Redoubt, rather than to show that no such defensive fortifications system existed. With a better understanding of how Supreme Headquarters built this myth, perhaps future commanders will understand the importance of integrating intelligence obtained from all sources.

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cgi-bin/show...lename=656.pdf

803 kb pdf"


Upon skimming the thesis through, I was myself surprised to find that the Nazi leadership actually got the precise idea for the Alpenfestung from Allen Dulles, the future Director of the CIA...:eek: (pages 11-18)
 
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