WI: Hitler dies on June 24th, 1940?

How does this ATL WWII take shape without Mr Mustache?


  • Total voters
    91
I can't see the holocaust not happening. Himmler and the other fanatical SS goons still exist.
with the numerous assassination attempts they usually involved coup d'état, eliminating the SS & putting the army firmly in control.
 
We got a (wonderful) thread a while back "most ridiculous ways for hitler to die" so anything can happen. Even being killed by a mountain goat.

While leaving Napoleon's Tomb, Hitler was walking to his car, suddenly, without warning, a mountain goat, escaped from the Paris Zoo, charged from out of nowhere. He was killed on impact...
 
Hmm, I guess the most interesting point in all this then is how Hitler is remembered - most likely as a German hero for throwing off the yolk of the Versailles treaty, unifying all the German lands, and smashing the hated French. A bit of domestic violence against political supporters and minority groups will conveniently get forgotten most likely, and there'll be statues of him all over Germany.

Yeah, in this TL, Hitler is probably unironically remembered as the GROFAZ.
 
Well that makes it alright then
No, but w/o the Holocaust would it (or Kristallnacht) be any more than an obscure historical footnote?

Hitler's image as a monster derives mostly from what the Allies found at Belsen et al in 1945 - which won't have happened TTL.

NB _ Kemal Ataturk was and is widely accepted as a "great man" despite the fate of Turkey's Greek and Armenian minorities.
 

Deleted member 94680

No, but w/o the Holocaust would it (or Kristallnacht) be any more than an obscure historical footnote?

Hitler's image as a monster derives mostly from what the Allies found at Belsen et al in 1945 - which won't have happened TTL.

NB _ Kemal Ataturk was and is widely accepted as a "great man" despite the fate of Turkey's Greek and Armenian minorities.

Well, as I believe the Nazis (even without Hitler) would continue the War and (without Hitler) would still lose, then the atrocities of the regime would still be reviled. They would either be defeated by the WAllies and an alt-Nuremberg happen, or some Heer-backed Conservative/Monarchist movement from within Germany would depose them - in both cases, the evils of the Nazis are ‘useful’ to publicise.

I understand justification of Aktion T4 by comparison to other, similar, medical programmes in other nations, but I believe the intent was far different for the Nazis.
 

natalieb

Banned
My point is - and as Mike points out with Ataturk, people are willing to forgive a lot of horrible things if it suits them or they just don't care about the victims. Without the Holocaust, a lot of the bad things the Nazis did don't stand out in the general scheme of things compared to similar atrocities in other Western countries contemporaneous to the Hitler regime.
 
The scenario specifically is about a Hitler who did not die to a coup. Coming in here and trying to lord over people is not appreciated.

Exploring tangents is normal in most threads.

For example in most of these HISTORICAL assassination attempts, the ARMY was expected to take over . if Hitler just dies I would expect ARMY to still make a move to take control, and do away with these troublesome Nazi.
 

natalieb

Banned
FDR was in crappy health years before his death. Hitler wasn't in great health in 1940 either, given the poor state he was in just four years later. This "magically was great health right up until the last part" doesn't make sense.
 
Exploring tangents is normal in most threads.

For example in most of these HISTORICAL assassination attempts, the ARMY was expected to take over . if Hitler just dies I would expect ARMY to still make a move to take control, and do away with these troublesome Nazi.
Tangents are common, but you came in here and expected people to immediately fall in line with yours. Stop lording over people.

You're also foolish if you think the Army is going to stage a coup when support for Nazis, having just knocked over France in a very short fight, is at an all time high. Attempted coups happened because Hitler shot Germany in the foot and (lol) started trying to lord over the military like you're trying in this thread.
 
I’ll vote fort he vegetarian Hitler trying a victory steak and choking on it.
Nevermind, logically, the absent credibility of Hitler is the reason why peace could not be made.
I’ll say that France gets its territories back and the rump State of Poland gets more nominal independence, but that is it. Remember the SU already swallowed half, so Goering Will have no trouble convincing the World if its needs to defend against SU.
Again, logically, Germany should get good trade agreements to regain economic independence from the SU.
The major question in addition to Barbarossa+/- is wheather the Nazi economy Can settle down AND maintain a strong military. Maybe they have to continue east or be to weak to the power status which the Nazis Feels entitled to.
 
My thinking is that propaganda wise, if the Germans start selling the war being continued is squarely resting upon Churchill's head, and make reasonable terms with the other nations, for post war reparations and such, all of which is dependant upon peace being restored, and Churchill keeps up his rhetoric, the best move for Germany is to conclude peace treaties with Belgium, Denmark, Norway, while opening dialogue over France and Poland. Get a peace treaty that stipulates German forces will be withdrawn, once a formal treaty is signed with the UK.

Remember, to this point, the home islands of the United Kingdom, remain largely untouched, so the UK may have suffered some setbacks, but hasn't lost anything much yet, compared to what continuing the war is going to cost in lives and treasure, especially if the Germans can hold up treaties signed with the other nations, that simply need the UK to make peace for them to go into effect.

As far as the war goes, what do the germans do next?
Politically, Germany has lost it's leader, and the Nazi's have lost their main man, so what happens now?
 
We have already done this one. The thread ended with Germany having a massive economy and us debating what the ATL German moon program would be.
I wonder if it would be this easy. Germany cannot maintain a massive State deficit indefinately, and needs to really increase exports and taxes. Not popular.
 

Deleted member 94680

My thinking is that propaganda wise, if the Germans start selling the war being continued is squarely resting upon Churchill's head, and make reasonable terms with the other nations, for post war reparations and such, all of which is dependant upon peace being restored, and Churchill keeps up his rhetoric, the best move for Germany is to conclude peace treaties with Belgium, Denmark, Norway, while opening dialogue over France and Poland. Get a peace treaty that stipulates German forces will be withdrawn, once a formal treaty is signed with the UK.

You know Hitler wasn’t the only radical and aggressive Nazi, right?

Are we seriously suggesting that simply if Hitler dies (not by coup, as the OP has stipulated) suddenly all the Nazis and Heer officers become sane, rational, diplomatic actors? Hitler wasn’t the only Nazi and you’d be hard pressed to find anyone suggesting this line of action OTL that was prevented from implementing it purely by Hitler’s presence alone.
 

trajen777

Banned
1. Goring takes power
2. He "takes out his opposition" -- Himmler in specific, German industrialists, army, navy, and air force supports him. He makes Hitler a here (see Stalin use of Lenin).
3. The country moves towards a kaiserreich type of country attitude.
4. As to the Peace
a. France loses more to Italy (Corsica, some other Africa area)
b. Germany signs naval treaty with GB, offers 1914 borders + Gain of A of the AL with L staying with France.
c. France army kept to a certain level, but not crushed
d. A Great powers meeting is organized to come to acceptable peace terms.
5. GB and Germany come to a compromise.
6. No invasion of USSR.
7. Germany focused on econ growth
 
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