WI: Hitler dies on June 24th, 1940?

How does this ATL WWII take shape without Mr Mustache?


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Inspired by THIS thread, what if Herr Hitler dies on June the 24th, 1940, in Paris? Not by being blown up, shot, or even attacked, but by accident. How doesn't really matter, perhaps he chokes to death on his last meal, or perhaps slips and falls in the tub, whatever. So Mr Mustache is removed from history, but France has just fallen as OTL, so Norway/Denmark and everything else prior to the 24th remains as OTL.

What happens now?

For myself, I'm thinking that the Germans offer terms.

All fighting stops.
All German territorial losses (in Europe) of WWI are revoked.
The Anschluss with Austria is recognized.
All newly restored German Territory will be sorted out at the peace table.

So, in the East, Poland looses and former German lands, but this is understood to be something other than "Poland looses/Germany gains" in absolute terms kinda thing, but rather the disputed lands and issues will be resolved as part of the permanent peace treaty. Poland will BE, and will be granted free and unrestricted access to world markets/trade, no matter any other terms and conditions, to be guaranteed in writing, right from the start. Possibly the mixed German/Polish lands will be outside both nations.

In the South East, the Sudetenland will NOT be part of Czechoslovakia, but may also not be part of Germany, like the mixed German/Polish lands, these mixed German/Czech lands might not be part of either country.

In the west, the disputed lands with France, where the populations are mixed German/French, these lands too might not end up in either nation.

Generous reparations payments made to those that have suffered the restoration of German lands and rights in the fighting are on the table.

SO...
 
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Well, Hitler just dropping down dead on his own is verging on ASB - I'm not aware of any brushes with death in Paris in 1940.

In any case I'm not sure what this really changes from the other thread - it really just butterflies away Barbarrossa and probably the final solution.

In any case, Britain flatly refused all terms OTL after the fall of France and vowed to fight on "alone", Hitler being dead isn't going to change that unless the Germans suddenly decide to apologise profusely and give back everything taken going back to the Anschluss.
 

Archibald

Banned
France is screwed, but there is still limited hope. This might be ashot in the arm that may help the free French and screw Vichy... hopefully Pétain drop dead when learning that Hitler is gone :p June 24 is still before Mers El Kébir and Pétain being granted full powers, so maybe the French Navy can get away, to the West Indies. I can see a lot of chaos.
 
Well, Hitler just dropping down dead on his own is verging on ASB
How so? People die every day in perfectly mundane, ordinary ways. So having anyone die, of bad luck, accidents, or whatever, does not require the intervention of otherworldly forces.

In any case I'm not sure what this really changes from the other thread - it really just butterflies away Barbarossa and probably the final solution.
Unlike the other thread, the fall of France, and indeed the invasions of Denmark/Norway, are not up for being "butterflied away" with this POD.

In any case, Britain flatly refused all terms OTL after the fall of France and vowed to fight on "alone", Hitler being dead isn't going to change that unless the Germans suddenly decide to apologise profusely and give back everything taken going back to the Anschluss.
I don't know about that, in this ATL, Hitler will be remembered not as the OTL monster he was, but instead as the guy that restored Germany to her full rights within Europe, and then tragically died on the eve of his triumph.
 
Goering would be in charge. Would use his power in the typical "low energy" South American dictator way, not the world conquering way.

However Britain wouldn't ask for terms. Goering might propose some, but it would certainly be July before those might be figured out. Certainly Britain is not going to deal with Germany on the other side of the channel OR Germany having colonies OR building submarines full on.

If Germany agreed to 1914 border (plus Austria and Sudetenland) minus the colonies, return to London Naval Treaty, Britain might agree to an Amiens style peace and just see what happens while building up.

Minus such an agreement. I don't see Barbarossa. I don't see a DOW on USA. I can see even a delay in the BOB (to rest his precious Luftwaffe).
 

Deleted member 94680

How so? People die every day in perfectly mundane, ordinary ways. So having anyone die, of bad luck, accidents, or whatever, does not require the intervention of otherworldly forces.

I think we would have heard of a brush with death that Hitler had in Paris in 1940. The fact no such thing is known of almost certainly precludes the chance of it occurring. Good AH requires the minimum of changes, so handwaving an accident for Hitler is low level ASB.

I don't know about that, in this ATL, Hitler will be remembered not as the OTL monster he was, but instead as the guy that restored Germany to her full rights within Europe, and then tragically died on the eve of his triumph.

May 1940 War Cabinet Crisis. By this point Churchill is PM and has firmly nailed his colours to the mast regards fighting the Germans. Dead Hitler or no dead Hitler, the British are going to carry on fighting.

FYI - by June 1940 I think Hitler already qualifies as a ‘monster’ quite safely. Kristallnacht? Nuremberg Laws? Aktion T4 for gods sake. It’s not like Hitler was a nice guy right up until the Wansee Conference and then went bad.
 
Well, Hitler just dropping down dead on his own is verging on ASB

I think we would have heard of a brush with death that Hitler had in Paris in 1940. The fact no such thing is known of almost certainly precludes the chance of it occurring. Good AH requires the minimum of changes, so handwaving an accident for Hitler is low level ASB.
How so? People die every day in perfectly mundane, ordinary ways. So having anyone die, of bad luck, accidents, or whatever, does not require the intervention of otherworldly forces.

I feel the need to address this. Having the guy drop dead of a stroke, when in OTL he didn't have any such condition, or a heart attack, when in OTL his heart is fine, then that would be something worthy of declaring the involvement of the oft-mentioned {Alien Space Bats}, but to try and claim such for ANY POD is just too much. As said above, folks die every day, and having someone, anyone, no matter how important, famous/infamous, powerful or whatnot, die of whatever everyday cause, is simply a Point Of Divergence from our historical past. I think we should just agree to disagree on this point.
 

Archibald

Banned
We got a (wonderful) thread a while back "most ridiculous ways for hitler to die" so anything can happen. Even being killed by a mountain goat.
 
I don't know about that, in this ATL, Hitler will be remembered not as the OTL monster he was, but instead as the guy that restored Germany to her full rights within Europe, and then tragically died on the eve of his triumph.
FYI - by June 1940 I think Hitler already qualifies as a ‘monster’ quite safely. Kristallnacht? Nuremberg Laws? Aktion T4 for gods sake. It’s not like Hitler was a nice guy right up until the Wansee Conference and then went bad.
I suppose I could have said that better, so let's amend the above to something more like, "In the context of an ATL, where WWII ends in 1940, with Germany regaining all it's European territorial losses from WWI, even if large non-German minority areas are not annexed into Germany proper, but rather existed in a set of 'buffer states' between Germany and its neighboring nations, and free elections are held to determine the exact nature of each such buffer state with respect to how they interact with other nations, etc..." and with the additional stipulation that this is by the majority of German citizens, who do not have to suffer thru the destruction like unto our OTL WWII, but rather live in a Germany that never had to continue fighting after the cease fire that went into effect sometime after Hitler's death.

But I digress.

Perhaps I need a thread to discuss the "Peace proposal" mentioned briefly here, so that this thread can stay focused on the likely differences within the ATL WWII?
 
I don't see why Hitler couldn't fall down some stairs, a car accident or die in another freak accident. It would be the most interesting if it's 100% clear that it was a accident and no one was to blame.

I think that if Hitler dies this way, he will be remembered as another Alexander the Great.
 
I don't see why Hitler couldn't fall down some stairs, a car accident or die in another freak accident. It would be the most interesting if it's 100% clear that it was a accident and no one was to blame.

I think that if Hitler dies this way, he will be remembered as another Alexander the Great.
Yep. I was going for an unspecified, yet NOT hostile action, death for herr Hitler, so as not to sidetrack the discussion from the different war that would likely result from him not being in charge of Germany.
 
I don't see why Hitler couldn't fall down some stairs, a car accident or die in another freak accident. It would be the most interesting if it's 100% clear that it was a accident and no one was to blame.

I think that if Hitler dies this way, he will be remembered as another Alexander the Great.
Hmm, I guess the most interesting point in all this then is how Hitler is remembered - most likely as a German hero for throwing off the yolk of the Versailles treaty, unifying all the German lands, and smashing the hated French. A bit of domestic violence against political supporters and minority groups will conveniently get forgotten most likely, and there'll be statues of him all over Germany.
 

natalieb

Banned
Without the Holocaust, Aktion T4 doesn't stand out all that much from what most countries in the West were doing to the disabled (or in one famous case, ordering the sterilisation of a girl whose only "crime" was to be an abuse victim)
 

Deleted member 94680

Without the Holocaust, Aktion T4 doesn't stand out all that much from what most countries in the West were doing to the disabled (or in one famous case, ordering the sterilisation of a girl whose only "crime" was to be an abuse victim)

Well that makes it alright then
 
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