WI Hitler died in March 1939?

King Thomas

Banned
What if having taken Austria and Czechoslovakia Hitler were to die in March 1939? (either assassination or just a heart attack?) Would WW2 still happen? And if not, how would Nazi Germany evolve without Hitler? Would it slowly liberalise over time? What would be the view of Hitler in other countries? Any chance of a State of Isreal?
 
Timeline

If Hitler died after an assassination, it would have been a second shot of Sarajevo. So I'm leaving that alone.

1939. April 1st
Hess announces Hitler's death by a heart attack.[1] Hitler will from now on be seen as Germany's greatest statesman who has fulfilled German unification. Adolf becomes one of the most popular boys' name in Germany.
[1] A British newspaper headlined: "No kidding - German Fuhrer dead".

1939, April
The highest German politicians meet at a mansion near Wannsee lake. During this later-called Wannsee Conference, Göring manages to unify the office of the Reichspräsident and Reichskanzler in his hands[2]. Hess stays head of the party. Goebbels still is minister of propaganda and culture. Himmler is promoted head of inner security.
[2] Hitler had ordered that after his death, the office of the head of the party, the state and the government were to be singled out.


1939, June

The fatherland lies quite. Göring starts economic reforms as most Wehrmacht officers don't seem to be glad if there would be a war. Still, Göring seeks some success, possibly in the foreign area. While not really wanting a war, he ruttles with his sabres. He declared:
"German fatherland is unified, yes. But German soil is still under Fremdherrschaft. But Germany is a peaceful country: We demand the Polish corridor, Upper Silesia in the borders of 1914. After that - we will recognize all European borders."

1939, June to September: Summer crisis
The Polish government does not want to cede Polish soil to Germany. British prime minister Chamberlain calls for a conference. Participants are: Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy and Poland. This is a great difference to the Munich conference of last year's autumn.
The results are:
- German annexation of Danzig
- Germany receives an exterritorial way from Pommerania to Danzig
- Germany receives part of upper Silesia.
- Polish traders in Danzig will be treated as German traders
- Germany accepts all borders in Europe as unchangeable

1939, November

Stalin invades Finland. He did it because he thought the economical problems Germany is facing (Mefo-Wechsel a.s.o.) will stop it from intervening. He is right.

1940, Spring
Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia sign a military alliance. France and Great Britain guarantee the borders.

1940, June
After his success in Finland (Annexation of Karelia), Stalin launches an invasion into the border countries. Poland declares war on the USSR and is backed up by Great Britain and France. While GB fears a Communist Europe, France fears loss of influence in Eastern Europe. Germany stays neutral due to monetary and economical problems.
Molotov and German foreign minister Ribbentrop sign a secret treaty wherein Germany declares to stay neutral if the USSR agrees to a) accept border changes to Germany's favour if they should happen and b) to take over all the remaining Czech in the Reichsprotektorat of Bohemia.

1940, July
Soviet troups beat the sh** out of Polish cavalary and reach Warsaw and the Weichsel river in early August.

1940, August
German forces move into Poland west of the Weichsel river. Göring declares: "Poland has to be saved from the Communists." He installs a Generalgouvernement, but hinders a Polish exile government to stay in "Free Poland". It moves to London.

1940, August to 1943, May
War in Eastern Europe. Germany stays "neutral" but tries to use the situation. After soviet invasion into the Balkans and Franco-British expedition forces being rather useless, Göring offers a helping hand if the Western allies agree to border changes. They do and now Göring moves about 1.5 mio. soldiers into the Balkans and Finland. With German soldiers in-between, fightings seize.

Göring calls for a Potsdam conference. The following results:
- several changes in the Balkans (map will be added)
- USSR keeps Estonia and Lativa north of Riga, Bukovina and part of Eastern Poland
- Germany receives the pre-1914 borders in the East and Southern Carinthia as a price for its role as an arbiter europae
- Italy receives Dalmatia
- Croatia will be independent
- ethnic cleansing will be conducted: Czechs will have to move into the USSR and the Balkans will be cleansed

1944, July
Himmler, being so often pushed into the background, tries a coup-d'etat, but Reinhard Heydrich (who should have been a key role in the coup) turns and part of his SS guards stop Himmler.
Dr. Ludwig Erhard writes a (later) famous memorandum in which he shows a possible economic reform.

1944, August
Göring, whose health has suffered during the last years, thinks about his and Germany's future: He decides, it would be better to install a new regime.

1944, September
Göring announces members of a National assembly. 150 men (of which about a half is not in the party!) receive the order to write a new constitution with a strong monarch.

1945, May
The National assembly declares the new constitution (after it is approuved by Göring):
1. There will be a German monarch. He will be the head of the executive.
2. There will also be a general vote and plebiscites (could be in accordance with a certain view of the German people even in NS thinking).
3. There will be a Reichstag again, but the NSDAP will stay state party. Other parties are not allowed.

Göring puts Louis Ferdinand of Hohenzollern in charge, thereby leaving William III out of the throne. Emperor Louis Ferdinand has to agree to keep Reinhard's SS as a security guard. Erhardt's economical ideas are implemented, crafting a Wirtschaftswunder after the long years of recession and war. Therefore, the new monarchy and the new currency, the Deutschmark, are positively seen as keys to German identity.

What will the future bring? Well, Germany will stay an authoritarian country where a human life does not count too much. In 1950, other parties are allowed as Blockparteien. Germany negotiates a European commercial union. European troops fight in Algeria, Tunisia and Libya, almost killing all non-white people. These countries will become colonies to European settlers.
In British Palestine, more and more Jews start to settle. As they won't be having an own country, they are forced to co-operate with the Arab population. Those who do not go to Palestine mostly move to the US and Great Britain.

But in March 1952, old-aged Stalin sends the famous Stalin note to the European powers...
 
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Europe in 1950

Europe-1950.GIF
 
Don't forget that german economic problems in '39 (Mefo) were homemade.

Hitler and his henchmen knew that war was about to breake loose, so they didn't care for inflation.

Considering this, Goering not going to war because of problems that occured because the actual plan WAS going to war in the first place seems kind of....well;)
 
Interesting - so going forward, you have a Soviet Union that avoided the worst of the Great Patriotic War and therefore is in a stronger position absolutely (though less so relatively, since the rest had more modest conflicts (Britain and France are undamaged as far as I can tell). And in the middle, you have a Nazi-light Germany which is still pretty damn racist but not quite as, well, Nazish. So it looks like you set up a Germany/France/Italy alliance of exterminationist imperialists - do they get emperors, too? , a British Empire which carries on apace (which I imagine is still pretty rough road as far as decolonial conflicts go) and a still-isolated United States - is there gonna be a USA-Japan war?
 
SSSR and the Reich would be much more friendly than in OTL, as there would likely be no war betven them and all the cooperation during the non-agression years would continue and probbably grow into a unoficiall partnership

basically instead of ever planing barbarossa to seise the oil fields the germans would simply become russian first buisness partner buing all the oil and steel russia can spare

this would probbably afect east europe the most as the two states would basically partition most of it, as they did poland

and would not the more moderate part of the military comand, as the wermarcht would probbably hold even more power after Hitler is gone, become more important politically, with people like Romel getting more important positions and more say, and someone like Udet getting more controll ower the luftwaffe for instance
could there even be a coup?
 
Addendum

I didn't want to go into too much detail - but one can imagine Rommel, Udet etc. in supporting Göring during the Himmler Putsch. Thus Göring reduces NSDAP influence and manages to dwindle the SS to an Imperial body guard.

Addenda to the former timeline

1941, December
Japan attacks Pearl Harbour, making the US an enemy. As there American interests in Europe have not been harmed during the last years, there was no need to arm. This has now to be catched up.

1942, May
The French general elections of 1942 lead surpringly to a Fascist majority in Parliament and to Président Henri-Philippe Pétain. Because this was a free election, the Empire francaise does not break apart.

1943, June
Right after the end of the war in Europe, Stalin turns eastward and launches an attack to Japanese Mandschuria and Kurils. In Tokyo, spy Richard Sorge is executed.
The economic ties between the USSR and Germany strengthen, whereas the military trustment between the USSR, Great Britain, France, Netherlands and the US strengthen because of the same enemy - Japan.

1946, March
US bombers nuke Japanese cities. The Tenno surrenders.

1949, October
Chiang Kei-shek declares the Republic of China after Mao Zedong had to flee to Taiwan. Mao himself declares the People's Republic of China in Tai-Peh.

1950
Korean Communists panically see what happens to the idea of Communism. They start to revolt as they hope of Soviet support, which Stalin denies. Thus, desperate Communist uprisings in Korea are brutally put down. In the future, there can only be one Korea. Communists flee to Taiwan.

I meditate upon the future...
 
1940, Spring
Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia sign a military alliance. France and Great Britain guarantee the borders.

Highly, HIGHLY improbable. The Lithuanian and Polish goverments hated each other. Poland still held the Vilnus region, and Vilnus itself, which caused massive amounts of tension. Estonia and Latvia didn't have good relations with Poland either. I see a Baltic Entante formed, which is very likely, and that actually hapenned a lot earlier, in 1937.
 
Highly, HIGHLY improbable. The Lithuanian and Polish goverments hated each other. Poland still held the Vilnus region, and Vilnus itself, which caused massive amounts of tension. Estonia and Latvia didn't have good relations with Poland either. I see a Baltic Entante formed, which is very likely, and that actually hapenned a lot earlier, in 1937.

In this scenario you can almost see butterflying at work. Why could that alliance be possible?

1. Germany won't intervene openly because it has declared all borders unchangeable (and Göring is not Hitler and has slightly more problems to lead the Wehrmacht ranks than charismatic Hitler).
2. Nevertheless, Germany has already taken steps into Eastern Europe (Summer crisis, 1939).
3. USSR has already turned aggressive against Finland - why shouldn't it do so to even smaller countries also belonging to the former Czarist Russian Empire?

Thus, nerves are all on edge. I didn't say those countries form a political union. They won't marry. In this scenario they try to survive and have real chance. That's Realpolitik.
 
The 1950s

1948-1953
Colonial wars in North Africa and Eastern Asia. Whereas Indonesia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc. become independent (same as India in 1947), French, Italian and Spanish troups fight in Algeria, Tunisia and Libya. It is only after Wehrmacht General Rommel with his „Legion Desert Fox“ enter the war (1950) when the uprisings break together. Indeed, almost the whole Arab population is either killed or pushed out of the borders. That means: about 2.4 million people are killed, about 10 million are forced to flee into the desert.

1951
Dr. Goebbels dies during a plane crash. Rumors say it was not an accident.
The US seem to turn slightly fascist as the McCarthy Era begins.

1952, March
Stalin offers the opening of the soviet markets for Western products if they agree some slight border changes. Whereas France, Great Britain and Poland deny this plan, Germany and Italy show some interest. In consequence, Stalin’s offer is secretly turned into an agreement of partition of Eastern Europe. The dictatorships plan to act in autumn.

1952, July 4th
The German nuclear project „Thor’s Hammer“ leads to the detonation of an atomic bomb in the German-Polish border region which is promptly broadcasted all over the world.

1952, September to October
Soviet troups attack Lithuania, Latvia and Poland. German troups move into Poland west of the Weichsel and Bug rivers. Again Göring states, he wants to keep the country free from Soviet influence.
France and Italy remain silent because they are bound in North Africa and other colonial possessions.
Great Britain silently accepts the fact that Germany dominates Europe. It does so because it still hopes for a Germany keeping Soviet influence away and leave markets open. So the whole action ends in October.

1952, November 9th
Reichskanzler Göring holds a speech in the Reichstag. He declares Poland a part of a Greater Reich until the Communist threat stops. But he also demands a price for his „protection“: Again, a border change.

1953, March
Stalin dies. His successor is Nikita Khrushchev.

1953, June
First satellite is shot into space: the German rocket „Siegfried“ puts the satellite „Trabant“ into space. Short afterwards, the automobile producer Horch in Zwickau presents a new kind of Volkswagen, the „Trabant“.

1954
Nasser becomes president of Egypt. He signs a treaty with Great Britain and France to keep the Suez Channel open.

1956
Suez crisis. Nasser nationalizes the Suez channel, breaking the treaty of 1954. A Franco-British expedition force marches into Egypt. Although the US and USSR protest, Germany backs the two powers. Nasser surrenders and the Suez channel becomes (again) private possession of the Suez Company.

1957
The Soviets shoot their „Sputnik“ satellite into space. As now Germany as well as the USSR have satellites in space, the USA and Great Britain are shocked. Liberal democracies seem to be less capable of being at the head of progress.

The same year, Göring dies. His successor becomes Martin Bormann.

1958
US-President Dwight D. Eisenhower and British prime minister Harold Mcmillan sign an agreement. Key points are:
- both countries cooperate in technological questions, espcially concerning nukes and space flight
- both countries will form a military alliance
- Great Britain will use its influence on the Commonwealth to persuade those countries for signing similar contracts with the US

1959
Fidel Castro and Che Guevara overtake power in Cuba.
 
@ Leyermark: have you even heard of the butterfly effect?

You have
a) a surviving Nazi-light Germany.
b) a stronger Soviet Union.
c) a USA which never got involved in the alt-WWII.
d) neutral-ish Britain and France.

And yet:
- Stalin dies at the same time as OTL.
- the Suez Crisis happens on schedule too, for the same reasons - although with a different ending.
- the Soviet space programme (Sputnik I, 1957) is neither advanced, nor delayed, by the lack of captured Nazi rocket scientists - not that Korolev and friends were stupid - and is also unaffected by any 'space race' mentality with Germany.
 
@ Leyermark: have you even heard of the butterfly effect?
What the heck do you think you are?!
Yes, I have heard of it (if you could read). And yes, not all is being changed. Do you think butterflying is a free passport to change anything in the world? Why don't you go to the threads like "The city of Byzantium survives, no matter how, and turns out to be a 20th century great power"? THIS scenario here tries to be as realistic as possible. Maybe some things happen as they did in OTL, but for different reasons. So don't talk to me like this!

c) a USA which never got involved in the alt-WWII.
d) neutral-ish Britain and France.
And? Where's the problem? The US, GB and France fight in Asia against Japan. France has not solved its problems concerning the People's liberation front of the 1930s. They DO have serious problems, esp. after the first colonial wars in North Africa.

And yet:
- Stalin dies at the same time as OTL.
Why should it not be possible for Stalin to die the same time?

- the Suez Crisis happens on schedule too, for the same reasons - although with a different ending.
It was a problem concerning Egypt, France and Great Britain. I see Nasser as a person that wanted to free his own country from the power of direct imperialism. Therefore, it is only logical to try to nationalize the Suez channel which is a really important channel to world economics.

- the Soviet space programme (Sputnik I, 1957) is neither advanced, nor delayed, by the lack of captured Nazi rocket scientists - not that Korolev and friends were stupid - and is also unaffected by any 'space race' mentality with Germany.
Well, maybe there is cooperation between USSR and Germany like the military agreement in ATL 1952? Maybe there is a Communist super-brain revealing, just for the butterflying effect...?
 

bard32

Banned
What if having taken Austria and Czechoslovakia Hitler were to die in March 1939? (either assassination or just a heart attack?) Would WW2 still happen? And if not, how would Nazi Germany evolve without Hitler? Would it slowly liberalise over time? What would be the view of Hitler in other countries? Any chance of a State of Isreal?

How about a drug overdose? According to a special on the History Channel about Hitler's doctor, Hitler was a hypochondriac, and suffered from bad gas.
Hitler, like Goering, was also a drug addict.
 
1939, June to September: Summer crisis
The Polish government does not want to cede Polish soil to Germany. British prime minister Chamberlain calls for a conference. Participants are: Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy and Poland. This is a great difference to the Munich conference of last year's autumn.
The results are:
- German annexation of Danzig
- Germany receives an exterritorial way from Pommerania to Danzig
- Germany receives part of upper Silesia.
- Polish traders in Danzig will be treated as German traders
- Germany accepts all borders in Europe as unchangeable
Polish government wouldn't cede any territory to Germany, period. Officials who'd've tried it, would be ousted.
1939, November
Stalin invades Finland. He did it because he thought the economical problems Germany is facing (Mefo-Wechsel a.s.o.) will stop it from intervening. He is right.
But it wouldn't stop UK&France from intervening:rolleyes: And in this TL there's no hostile Germany to prevent movement of troops through Baltic Sea...
1940, Spring
Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia sign a military alliance. France and Great Britain guarantee the borders.
Doubtfull. Relations between Poland and Lithuania were really bad. Also, Baltic states'd worry about becoming a target for USSR - so no. Well, no announced to the all of world agreement. The secret defence pact - maybe...
1940, July
Soviet troups beat the sh** out of Polish cavalary and reach Warsaw and the Weichsel river in early August.
...what's with people assuming that every war in which Poland faces against Germany or Russia will unfold like OTL September 1939? Especially attack from the east...

Lets see what's different:

1. Geography

Length of Polish borders in 1939:
with Germany - around 2500 km
with USSR - 1412 km

Also, look at the shape of the borders - the shape of German one makes Polish forces outflanked from the day 1 of war, while the border with USSR is, from a strategic viewpoint, a straight line.

Another thing - the Prypec swamps. In the middle of border lies a stretch of swamps impossible to cross over by large fighting force, effectively dividing the theatre of war into northern (Belarusian) and southern (Ukrainian) halves. Meaning it divides any attack from east into two, unable to support each other, thrusts.

2. Transport, economy, supplies, population.

Road density was much lower in eastern Poland than in western, so the speed of advance would be much slower.

Most of factories and supply depots lied in western Poland, far from possible frontline with Red Army - unlike the situation with Germans. So in war with USSR Polish army would be much better supplied than in OTL September 1939.

Moreover most populous regions of Poland were the western ones.

3. Fighting force

While USSR would send against Poland more troops, airplanes etc. than Germany, they'd be, compared to Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine:
a) much worse equipped
b) much worse commanded
c) much worse trained
d) with much worse logistical chain
etc.

And in abovementioned categories, Polish Army would have advantage too - unlike against Germany, where high command and logistics were really awful (training and equipment levels were similiar).

And on the side note: just because "Soviet troops beat the sh** out of Polish cavalry" (all of 9 brigades of it) does mean nothing, as there's at least 39 infantry divisions and one motorised brigades left... oh, wait, it's mid-1940. So it'd be 8 cavalry brigades and 2 motorised ones.

That's it for now.
 
How about a drug overdose? According to a special on the History Channel about Hitler's doctor, Hitler was a hypochondriac, and suffered from bad gas.
Hitler, like Goering, was also a drug addict.

You see, this is why a lot of people tend to have problems with your posts. The part in bold text is relevant. All the rest of it is not. Him being a hypochondriac has nothing to do with him dying from a drugs overdose. Neither does him suffering from bad gas.

You need to stop throwing out a bunch of unrelated 'interesting facts', and make sure that everything you say actually has some relevance.
 
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