WI: Hitler and Mussolini Killed at Brest August, 1941

WI: Hitler and Mussolini Killed at Brest August, 1941
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Hitler and Mussolini visited Brest Fortress in August 1941. Supposedly some Soviet stranglers were still holding out in the city. So a Soviet soldier, perhaps hiding in that tank:D, leaps out and kills both Hitler and Mussolini. What happens in the aftermath? How does this impact the war?
Some authors[who?] claim that isolated defenders were being rooted out by Germans as late as in August when Hitler and Mussolini visited the fortress[citation needed] with heavy security to protect them from remaining defenders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Brest_Fortress
 

Deleted member 1487

Given how insanely effective Hitler's security was I think its almost ASB. He was so neurotic about it that before going into Vienna during Anschluss some 8000 bodyguards secured every inch of what he was supposed to visit.

But assuming there was a lapse Italy would probably be somewhat less inclined to keep fighting and probably try and drop out sooner if they could, while Goering would take over in Germany and probably wouldn't be as bad as Hitler in terms of long term strategy. From what I can gather out of a bio of him it seems like a lot of his bad decisions IOTL were made from a position of trying to please Hitler, almost like a boy trying to please his father. With Hitler dead Goering would probably be a more rational politician, as he was generally in private of more sound strategic thinking, like not wanting to go to war over Poland, nor invade the USSR, nor DoW the US. He would defer to Hitler's judgement always and do ANYTHING to please him, like initiate planning for the Holocaust or promise the impossible like the Stalingrad airlift. Without seeking Hitler's constant approval Goering, assuming he doesn't delegate to idiots for political reasons, would probably not make as many of the worst mistakes of Hitler from that point on, but then again Goering might well appoint idiots to various positions for political reasons...of course much of him doing that IOTL in the 1930s was the result of political infighting to ensure loyalty, if he is Führer he has less need to be fearful of bureaucratic infighting impacting his position because he's top dog now and there really isn't anyone to replace him.
 

Deleted member 1487

I think that Himmler would take power and his efforts to control the German Military hurts the war effort.
He's not powerful enough in 1941 by a long shot and Hitler declared Goering his successor in 1939. Himmler actually loses most of his power with Hitler dead and he depends on Goering for power now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring#World_War_II
Göring and other senior officers were concerned that Germany was not yet ready for war, but Hitler insisted on pushing ahead as soon as possible.[69] The invasion of Poland, the opening action of World War II, began at dawn on 1 September 1939.[70] Later in the day, speaking to the Reichstag, Hitler designated Göring as his successor as Führer of all Germany, "If anything should befall me."[71]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler#Historical_assessment
Historian Peter Padfield opined that "Himmler ... appeared the most powerful man under Hitler. It is impossible to say whether he was in practice, and meaningless to ask, since he was never prepared to use his power directly to change the course of events ..."[230]

Hitler called Himmler's mystical and pseudoreligious interests "nonsense".[211] Himmler was not a member of Hitler's inner circle; the two men were not very close, and rarely saw each other socially.[212][202] Himmler socialised almost exclusively with other members of the SS.[213] His unconditional loyalty and efforts to please Hitler earned him the nickname of der treue Heinrich ("the faithful Heinrich"). In the last days of the war, when it became clear that Hitler planned to die in Berlin, Himmler left his long-time superior to try to save himself.[214]
Himmler had no power base in the party or really outside the SS and the SS in 1941 was much less powerful that it would become and a major part of that power base was in the Waffen-SS, which was busy at the front. It really wasn't until 1944 that the SS became powerful enough to make Himmler 2nd in command functionally in Nazi Germany; perhaps in 1943 he could make a serious play for power after Hitler's death, but 1941 is just too early. It was the Holocaust and the accumulation of power in industry that really gave him his power and that really only hit a point in 1943 where he could have take power.
 
u

Italy would do much better Count Ciano and the fascist council, had common sense. The Marshall If he had any sense would end the ghetto movement and offer a homeland in exchange for anti Russian alliance.
 

Deleted member 1487

So what happens during the rest of the war? For example does Goring declare war on the US?
According to Richard Overy's bio on Goering, Goering was against DoWing the US and wanted to finish the wars already ongoing, especially given the situation with the Russian offensive around Moscow. I don't know if he would have had that perspective as Führer, but he was not a fan of the navy or Raeder, so I wonder if he'd say no and scale back the uboat war and cut funding to the navy out of spite so he could give more to 'his' Luftwaffe. I'm inclined to think that Goering wouldn't DoW the US as Führer and would focus on beating Russia and letting the Japanese hang for their actions, probably because he'd tell them no when they came and asked him his position of supporting them if they attacked the US beforehand. Now that doesn't mean he wouldn't get into a situation where FDR is able to create an incident to get into the war in Europe 6-12 months down the road, but its a lot harder when the US is initiating it and they already have an ongoing war in the Pacific.
 
Regardless of who comes to power: the German generals get what they want and go for Moscow instead of Kiev in September 1941. Goering does not have the same bank with the German High Command that Hitler did and they only altered their course after Hitler shoved the change down their throat, something Goering does not have the political capital to do. The result is a tide-turning Soviet victory in the winter that see's the German forces struggling towards Moscow encircled and wiped out. The Soviets, not having suffered the economic and military casualties of IOTL, roll into Berlin by the start of '44.
 

Deleted member 1487

Regardless of who comes to power: the German generals get what they want and go for Moscow instead of Kiev in September 1941. Goering does not have the same bank with the German High Command that Hitler did and they only altered their course after Hitler shoved the change down their throat, something Goering does not have the political capital to do. The result is a tide-turning Soviet victory in the winter that see's the German forces struggling towards Moscow encircled and wiped out. The Soviets, not having suffered the economic and military casualties of IOTL, roll into Berlin by the start of '44.
As Führer Goering's word is law, so its just a question of whether Goering himself wants to go for Kiev first. Given that the flank situation was such that going after Moscow was pretty much impossible without dealing with Kiev first other than some guys like Guderian or Hitler's team in OKW (Goering would likely pick some of his own guys here) he may well go for Kiev based on similar reasoning to Hitler. THAT is tough to say one way or the other.
 
As Führer Goering's word is law, so its just a question of whether Goering himself wants to go for Kiev first.

Goering's word holds substantially less weight with the military then Hitler's as they pretty well despised the man and even if he issues a specific order, the Heer can and will find ways to creatively disobey it (something they were very good at doing). The legalities of the matter are not relevant, the individual relationships are.

Given that the flank situation was such that going after Moscow was pretty much impossible without dealing with Kiev
The flank situation hardly made going after Moscow impossible. It did make going after Moscow successfully impossible, but then nobody in Germany appeared to have realized it (not even Hitler, really, he turned south more to secure economic resources then because he judged taking Moscow to be impossible).

some guys like Guderian or Hitler's team in OKW (Goering would likely pick some of his own guys here) he may well go for Kiev based on similar reasoning to Hitler.
OKH (not OKW, who were largely out of the loop in the Eastern Front) were uniform in their support for the Moscow option. Given that Goering has none of their respect, they are going to be even less inclined to accept his judgement then they were Hitler's... and they were pretty damn resistant to Hitler.

Goering is a new Fuhrer with none of Hitler's reputation (gained from the years before the war and from his correct decision in planning France to accept Manstein's plan) or charisma to bring the German generals to heel. He'll be well aware of this and be very likely to do what his professional military advisers are telling him in order to claim their victory for his own credit. His professional advisers will be telling him to go for Moscow. So he goes for Moscow.

It's just too bad that his professional advisers are wrong.
 
Well as others have said, both Germany and Italy would be better off. I think it might help to shorten the War, but to what degrees may have to be played out.

I do think Goering would be willing to bug out of Africa and save as many of his men down the road. It might also be interesting if he would still be semi friendly with Japan.
 
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