WI: Hitler Allies with Ukrainians Rebels during WWII

Being that the Russians would have taken most of Ukraine's machine equipment, giving them left-over tanks might have been less big of a deal. They would have been unable to actually copy them and build them on their own.

But, I agree, the Germans resisted letting their allies build German weapons on license for too long.
It's not just about copying them. Sometimes just repairing or cannibalizing could deliver some. But well what of this against Germans would be willing to go to Ukrianians.

Is there any Germans statistics how many Soviet weapons Germans were actually able to recover, how many were left for various reasons in fields?


But, I agree, the Germans resisted letting their allies build German weapons on license for too long.
That's true. Hungarians I believe wanted to buy license for early version of Pz IV but Germans were asking outrages fees. At the end sold them or allowed Skoda to sell license for Czech Skoda tank T-21 which Hungarians improved however at the time constructions was already too old.

Same goes for Romanians, they were interested in CKD ST-39 I believe and after Germans took over Czech lands they said no.
 
Collaborationist troops in East Ukraine did not exist, they came from the West, as the East considered themselves ethnically and culturally Russian and were loyal to Moscow by and large. Most of the partisans fighting the Germans happened East of the Dniepr as a result. Mobilizing the West Ukrainians to manage the 'East Ukrainians' would let them handle the population control and requisitions, as politically/ideologically the West Ukrainians saw the Russians living the East of their SSR as the enemy.
Complete BS on many points.
First of all, this divide of east vs west ukraine was not as big as now. Even Donbass was a lot more Ukrainian than it is now. Mass Rusification of eastern Ukraine happened in 50s and 60s.
Second of all, collaborationists. There was A LOT more russians fighting FOR Hitler than any other foreign nationalities. Estimated that around 1.5 million russians fight for Hitler, versus couple hundred thousands Ukrainians.
Just sick of this still lurking Soviet propaganda that Ukrainians were Nazi collaborationists when Russians themselves were the biggest ones.
 
Complete BS on many points.
First of all, this divide of east vs west ukraine was not as big as now. Even Donbass was a lot more Ukrainian than it is now. Mass Rusification of eastern Ukraine happened in 50s and 60s.
Second of all, collaborationists. There was A LOT more russians fighting FOR Hitler than any other foreign nationalities. Estimated that around 1.5 million russians fight for Hitler, versus couple hundred thousands Ukrainians.
Just sick of this still lurking Soviet propaganda that Ukrainians were Nazi collaborationists when Russians themselves were the biggest ones.
As far I am aware of large number of Russians fighting for Hitler I would be interested in your number 1.5 million though. Where did it come from? Often mentioned number I have seen is some 1.5 million Soviet citizens serving as combatants or helpers. After all if I remember correctly even Slovak Fast Division used some Soviet citizens as helpers in kitchen etc.
 
There could be no hunger plan for the reason, that any government which ends up resorting to it would not won the war. Trying to starve the Jews locked up in Ghettos was going too slow for Nazi tastes, hence death camps. Starving entire USSR would go on even slower.
Genocides are expensive. Its easy to say "we'll fuel our war effort by pillaging and grabbing all their food!" that worked in pre-industrial eras where armies were mercenaries paid mostly in plunder.
Hunger plan seems suspiciously like ex-post facto justification. Remember that OTL, even in Germanic/Aryan countries like Netherlands or Denmark, a lot of people starved, especially in later half of war.
- My fuhrer, we are running out of food to feed out own civilians. Now that we are invading USSR, situation exacerbates due to overextending of our logistics.
- (Oh crap, this is so embarrassing, I am supposed to be all-knowing, what should I say.. wait, got it) Don't be ridiculous, well just grab all their food. Let Slavic sub-humans starve, its all part of my cunning plan.
Initially Germans mostly wanted to just conquer, not exterminate. Killing off a lot of people in process was just non-problematic side-effect. Final solution was accelerated as response to realisation they'd fail to conquer Europe: "Can't conquer lebensraum, but can still kill the Jews. One out of two isn't that bad."
There was ideological component, but most of time ideology did not really lead Nazis, it just rationalised their accidental bumbling around.
How did they justify to themselves invading Norway? Easy peasy, they said Norwegians were not spiritually Aryan. Their culture irredeemably corrupted by decadent Anglos. Hence, not our friends even if look Aryan.

In unlikely event of total victory in the East even with food shortages, Lebensraum ends up a net drain. Believe it or not, conscripting German farmer to travel thousand of kilometres, so he could beat up half-starved ex-kolchoznik to grow food for him, conscripting another one to make military supplies for him, and another one to transport all that stolen food back to Germany, and another one to guard trains from partisans, is less effective agriculture than just staying home and growing your damn potatoes yourself.
Hence, as Germans begin to starve as they keep throwing men at the east to kill real or suspected or potential partisans, hunting peasants who hoard all food they can, while Soviets starve to death so damn slowly, they look to a solution. And being Nazi with one directional minds, they can come up with only one solution.
So then Nazis remember that those fat disloyal French are stuffing themselves on frogs and snails while listening to de Gaullist radio propaganda, even as good German men fight on empty stomachs.
So they come up with another of their bullshit, this how French are mongrelised race with irredeemably high admixture of Jewish and Arabic blood.
Enter Hunger Plan West. French are told "let them eat cake". Then when it works as badly as suspected, so later on Belgians are added to the list, then, Dutch, then Danish, then someone decides that Alsatians aren't really German (French admixture! race traitors!), so they don't need to eat.
Finally WAllies invades in late 1944, or early 1945. By this point, the comparatively uneventful occupation of Western Europe is mostly distant memory, and Germans have their hands busy from Atlantic to Volga.
 
I am not entirely sure where I've seen it but German K98 production capacities should be enough to equip at least 500k Ukrainians with basic infantry weapons. Does anyone know if there were facilities for ammunition production in Ukraine that weren't destroyed OTL? How long would it take to retool them to produce German calibers?
 
Is there any Germans statistics how many Soviet weapons Germans were actually able to recover, how many were left for various reasons in fields?

I don't know about stats, but plenty of Russian tanks and guns were turned into tank destroyers, I wonder where they got all the 76mm ammo.
 

Deleted member 1487

I don't know about stats, but plenty of Russian tanks and guns were turned into tank destroyers, I wonder where they got all the 76mm ammo.
They rebored them to take 75mm ammo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_cm_Pak_36(r)
  • Were Rechambered for the more powerful German Pak40 cartridge - which was nearly twice as long as the Soviet one (715 mm vs 385.3 mm) and also wider (100 mm vs 90 mm), resulting in 2.4 times the propellant load; and
 
In the East, the Soviets held alot more sway but in general people were still afraid after the Holodomer. Watching 12 million of you countrymen die over the course five years can do that to you. Soviet Control was very deep, and already had russified many segments of the population and brought in many ethnic Russians. People forget that during the Holodomer only Ukrainian villages had their food stolen, (including Ukrainian villages outside the Ukrainian SSR). The Russian villages expanded meanwhile, mostly eating the food of the Ukrainians. However, after maybe six months under a Ukrainian regime most of the East would fall in line. During WWI many parts of the country became staunchly loyal after actions of only a few units or individuals, for example Battle-Group Archduke Wilhelm.

If the Germans are quicker than they might be able to take Soviet industrial facilities in cities like Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Dnipro. Or if the Soviets don't act as well or as efficiently as OTL.
 
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