WI: Hipper stays and fights

Given how well the German Battlecruisers did in Jutland, I've allways wondered what would have happened if, when Blucher was hit, Hipper had stayed to fight rather than leave the CA to her fate and escape with his 3 BC and escorts. The British had the numbers and the bigger guns, but would "something be bloody wrong with their ships that day"?. Would the germans sink some british BC, and if they did, and Beaty (or who was left in charge if Lion blew up) had to retreat, what would that do for the rest of the naval war?
 
Given how well the German Battlecruisers did in Jutland, I've allways wondered what would have happened if, when Blucher was hit, Hipper had stayed to fight rather than leave the CA to her fate and escape with his 3 BC and escorts. The British had the numbers and the bigger guns, but would "something be bloody wrong with their ships that day"?. Would the germans sink some british BC, and if they did, and Beaty (or who was left in charge if Lion blew up) had to retreat, what would that do for the rest of the naval war?

Are you familiar with http://letterstime.com/?
 
Only that the Germans had some of the same problems, the British BCs had at Jutland. They were fixed only after Dogger Bank, where Seydlitz and Derfflinger were almost lost because of this problems.
 
Only that the Germans had some of the same problems, the British BCs had at Jutland. They were fixed only after Dogger Bank, where Seydlitz and Derfflinger were almost lost because of this problems.

Difference is that even thought not one but two of Seydiltz power rooms cooked off the the ships didn't explode. German powder burned differently than British and it was stored differently. Germans kept all their powder in metal tins so its another bonus. Yes flash protection was improved after the battle but it was also less needed. Not saying it couldn't happen for the Germans just less likely is all.

The track record is clear between the two fleets. British cordite was just unstable and subject to explosions. The Germans only lost two ships to explosions, Pommern and Karlsruhe. The RN had a damn long list of ships.

As to the specifics here. Dogger Bank is the best chance the Germans have if they are going to try to take on a larger force.

HMS Lion couldn't hit anything. Her crew was just green and the BCF gunnery was bad to begin with. Plus Beatty acted like a Napoleonic Hussar commander more than Naval. He allowed his force to get separated as his fastest ships chased after the Germans. Lastly Beatty had a track record of poor communication within his command. If sucked into a long drawn out battle my money is he will do something stupid.

Here is the problem even if the Germans do win they are going to be badly hurt in the process.

Michael
 
Yeah, the RN in WW1 had the same advantage that the USN had in WW2. They could afford to be morons. As painful as it is to admit the Germans were qualitatively superior to the mighty RN and fought smarter and had better commanders. But we had more ships and could get away with making a disturbingly large number of errors.
 
I know that the German battlecruisers were not quite as bad as the British ones, but with the problems they had the battle would not have been as one sided as the BC engagement at Jutland.
The best German chance for an early big success at sea would be the Scarborough raid on December 16. The British had missed that the HSF was at Sea and had send only Beatty´s 4 BCs and Warrender with 6 dreadnoughts to intercept Hipper. Furthermore Beatty had the same signal problems like at Doggerbank and Jutland. A bolder Ingenohl or one less restrained by the Kaisers orders might have caught some of this ships. With the ratio of numbers this would have been a truly one sided battle.
 
I know that the German battlecruisers were not quite as bad as the British ones, but with the problems they had the battle would not have been as one sided as the BC engagement at Jutland.

It depends on the specifics of the engagement. With Beatty getting all strung out the Germans can in theory attempt to defeat his force in detail. Not an easy feat I agree, especially as once the Germans stop running then the BCF has a chance to come back together.

Michael
 
and there's always the light forces running alongside the BC's, in which the RN also has a significant numbers advantage.
Incidently, Seydlizt had the same problem at Jutland as it did at Dogger bank, even with the improved flash etc, the only difference being that the connecting doors between the two stern barbettes was not opened by fleeing crew members and thus firing up two lots of overstacked propellants (only 1 barbettes worth this time). But it still didn;t go 'boom', so a [large] point in favourof the HSF.
 
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sharlin

Banned
If they had turned and fought it still would have been iffy. The sydlitz had lost two turrets and had shot off a huge number of rounds and was running low on ammo, the Blucher for all her size was a glorified armoured cruiser, she was part of the 1st Scout group because of her speed, but she was no battlecruiser. As mentioned, the RN had a greater number of light forces at the fight and they would have been a good counter for the german CLs and DDs.

If they turned and fought you would have had one badly damaged BC, one lightly damaged one and one undamaged one with a shot up AC against one badly damaged BC and four undamaged ones, not good odds even with poor british gunnery.

One thing to also bare in mind is that the RN Battlecruisers still obeyed their safety procedures at this time for turrets and propellant. It was after Dogger bank that Beatty ordered the safey procedures to be removed.
 
Beatty's forces at Jutland included four Queen Elizabeth class fast battleships in addition to his battlecruisers. For most of the Battlecruiser engagement, the QEs were effectively out of action, strung out too far behind Beatty's BCs to support them. If Hipper were to stay and fight, the QEs could catch up and engage, which would likely go very badly for Hipper. The QEs were the newest class of BBs, and they had much heavier armor (max of 13 inches in the main belt, vs 6 inches or 9 inches for the various BCs) than Beatty's BCs, and they had significantly heavier guns (15-inch, vs 12-inch for most of the BCs or 13.5-inch for HMS Tiger).

IMO, the best opportunity for a better German outcome in the BC engagement at Jutland would be for Scheer to do a better job of springing the trap that Hipper had lured Beatty into by fleeing towards the main body of the HSF. Perhaps if Hipper had sent a destroyer or a seaplane ahead to alert Scheer that Beatty was coming, Scheer might have been able to deploy the HSF's BBs across Beatty's T. As it was, it took a fair amount of luck for Beatty's force to disengage and flee to the north without taking heavy losses, especially among the QE battleships, which had been too strung out to receive the order to turn back to the north.
 
I suspect Maniakes that you are confusing battles - the OP was about Dogger Bank and not Jutland. :p
 
Whoops, that explains why I was having trouble following the thread. I misread the mention of Jutland in the OP as suggesting a change in Hipper's behavior at Jutland, not as a data point for the relative combat effectiveness for British vs German BCs.
 
QE class

The QE class was effectively a game changer, and no BC could contemplate fighting fast BB with a reasonable chance of surviving. But without the QE, the better balanced design of the German BC could hav made up for numerical inferiority. Having grown up in the never leave a man behind school, I never thought the odds at Dogger Bank justified abandoning Blucher to it's demise. In a reversed situation a RN force would have fought, and that lack of willingness to risk negative odds doomed the German Fleet to irrelevance.
 
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