WI: Hindu China?

[Harald Sigurdson II]

Let's say, that during the Warring States period, one of the larger states (not necessarily Chin) was visited by Hindu proselytizers and the ruling class subsequently converted. They unify China same time as OTL, and in a few generations the last folds and cracks of the peasantry have converted.

What happens?

 

[Tjakari]

I have no answer for what would happen if anything remotely like what you described had happened.

But I can say that your scenario smells of guano. I have no idea why Hindus would be anywhere in North China, it's far from the homeland of Hinduism and there are plenty of other routes more easily reached; Tibet, Indochina, Malaysia, hell the Yue in South China would make more sense to be reached by Hindu proselytizers.

Disregard geography and you're still left with the obstacle that is xenophobia. Why would the Chinese even consider conversion to a foreign belief, especially one that simply wreaks of alien culture, concepts that just don't meld with any fundamental understandings held by the Chinese, upper-class or not.
Religions don't always have a potentially universal appeal.

 

[Sharunaku]

A hardship would be defining the brahmin caste out of the blue. The hereditary warrior nobles become kshatriyas, no problem; the free men become vaishyas, acceptable; the slaves? Shudra, who gives a damn anyway? But for creating a caste above the rulers? Why would anyone in their sound mind do that?

Also, the incompatible mythology will be a big obstacle in bringing Hinduism in. Buddhism avoided it by not caring about the gods, and define buddha as a state of transcendence, instead of supremacy like traditional gods.

And also, social rigidity was found out to be a bad thing by the Warring States, and any state that wanted to keep itself above others switched to meritocracy from heredity (expect the monarch, of course), and the caste system would knock any converters out of the competition.

 

[pattersonautobody]

I have no answer for what would happen if anything remotely like what you described had happened.

But I can say that your scenario smells of guano. I have no idea why Hindus would be anywhere in North China, it's far from the homeland of Hinduism and there are plenty of other routes more easily reached; Tibet, Indochina, Malaysia, hell the Yue in South China would make more sense to be reached by Hindu proselytizers.

Disregard geography and you're still left with the obstacle that is xenophobia. Why would the Chinese even consider conversion to a foreign belief, especially one that simply wreaks of alien culture, concepts that just don't meld with any fundamental understandings held by the Chinese, upper-class or not.
Religions don't always have a potentially universal appeal.

Isn't Buddhism big in CHina? Isn't a large segment in CHina Buddhist? Why not Hinduism do well at the expense of Buddhism petering out?

 

[scholar]

Isn't Buddhism big in CHina? Isn't a large segment in CHina Buddhist? Why not Hinduism do well at the expense of Buddhism petering out?

Buddhism came later, and found itself take root in a time period where the population of China was reduced by 2/3s in centuries of warfare and barbarian invasion. It took root because it was seen as a foreign form of Daoism, and many members of the faith believed that when Lao Tzu went west, he helped found Buddhism either by being Buddha or teaching Siddhartha Gautama.

Hinduism goes at the very essence of the Hundred Schools of Thought in China, and during the later Dynastic Periods would fail during the first Dynastic Disruption since social mobility in China was incredibly high during those periods (and then becoming incredibly low as the Dynasty lasted a few generations).

 

[Sharunaku]

Isn't Buddhism big in CHina? Isn't a large segment in CHina Buddhist? Why not Hinduism do well at the expense of Buddhism petering out?

I think I've answered in the post right above yours.

 

[Kingpoleon]

The more likely scenario is a religious Indian civil war. If the Buddhists lost in India, some would flee to China or Tibet. Eventually, however, the majority of Buddhists in India would either convert to Hinduism, be killed, or adopt a mostly Hinduism-based version of Buddhism. Let's assume this bastardized version of Buddhism manages to become the majority religion in Tibet. Then, Hindu India would heavily influence them into becoming Hindus. If these Hindus were later annexed by a United China, it is safe to say the religion would spread. Most likely, however, we would see a Confucian influenced version of it that likely incorporated some Buddhism. However, this Neo-Hinduism would come at the right time to be a different evolutionary path of Confucianism instead of Neo-Confucianism.

 

[Sharunaku]

The more likely scenario is a religious Indian civil war. If the Buddhists lost in India, some would flee to China or Tibet. Eventually, however, the majority of Buddhists in India would either convert to Hinduism, be killed, or adopt a mostly Hinduism-based version of Buddhism. Let's assume this bastardized version of Buddhism manages to become the majority religion in Tibet. Then, Hindu India would heavily influence them into becoming Hindus. If these Hindus were later annexed by a United China, it is safe to say the religion would spread. Most likely, however, we would see a Confucian influenced version of it that likely incorporated some Buddhism. However, this Neo-Hinduism would come at the right time to be a different evolutionary path of Confucianism instead of Neo-Confucianism.

Buddhists did lose the religion contest IOTL India, and only caught on in the regions bordering India. The Buddhists in Indochina, China, Tibet and Sri Lanka didn't became Hindus, however.

 

[Timaeus]

I always thought Hinduism was just this disparate collection of philosophies, cults, and other things united only by their common roots in India. In other words, it's not really an organized religion.

Buddhism is more an organized religion. at the very least, there was the missionary drive that brought it to Japan.

Hinduism is more like the Greek and Roman religions, Shinto, and the Chinese philosophies. In other words, more bound to the land and the people than the idea.

 

[Shahrasayr]

I always thought Hinduism was just this disparate collection of philosophies, cults, and other things united only by their common roots in India. In other words, it's not really an organized religion.

Buddhism is more an organized religion. at the very least, there was the missionary drive that brought it to Japan.

Hinduism is more like the Greek and Roman religions, Shinto, and the Chinese philosophies. In other words, more bound to the land and the people than the idea.

This. If Hinduism was to spread into China it would adopt local beliefs and such like it did elsewhere, eg. Indonesia. The Hinduism the OP is referring to is the modern Hinduism, which only really started becoming popular in the late 1800s.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Buddhists did lose the religion contest IOTL India, and only caught on in the regions bordering India. The Buddhists in Indochina, China, Tibet and Sri Lanka didn't became Hindus, however.

Pakistan and other outlying provinces of India contained elements of Buddhism until after Indian freedom from Britain.

 

[Sharunaku]

Pakistan and other outlying provinces of India contained elements of Buddhism until after Indian freedom from Britain.

And those regions are contiguous, traversable, and dominated by Indian entities. Buddhists in Pakistan were eradicated by a monotheistic religion, and is irrelevant.

 

[Rishi]

Hindu proselytizers

Hinduism is not a proselytising religion (at least not in the traditional sense). Indeed, Hinduism is more a way of life than a 'religion' per se. This is why it's possible to be a cultural Hindu, but not a religious Hindu.

But for creating a caste above the rulers?

Actually, Kshatriyas are considered more important than Brahmins as far as worldly affairs are concerned because it is the job of the Kshatriyas to protect all of the other groups in the caste system whereas Brahmins are considered to be the most spiritually important group in the caste system.

 

[Shahrasayr]

Hinduism is not a proselytising religion (at least not in the traditional sense). Indeed, Hinduism is more a way of life than a 'religion' per se. This is why it's possible to be a cultural Hindu, but not a religious Hindu.



Actually, Kshatriyas are considered more important than Brahmins as far as worldly affairs are concerned because it is the job of the Kshatriyas to protect all of the other groups in the caste system whereas Brahmins are considered to be the most spiritually important group in the caste system.

Indeed. In fact, while Brahmins had a high status, they were significantly poor in North India, especially Bengal. I do not know if this applies for South India though.

 

[Sharunaku]

Indeed. In fact, while Brahmins had a high status, they were significantly poor in North India, especially Bengal. I do not know if this applies for South India though.

According to Armenian Genocide(why's this a trope here?), parts of southern India have only Brahmins and Shudras, though it doesn't mention who does what there.

 

[Rishi]

According to Armenian Genocide(why's this a trope here?), parts of southern India have only Brahmins and Shudras, though it doesn't mention who does what there.

Parts of Southern India having only Brahmins and Shudras doesn't tell us very much. This is because there are sub-groups within the four main caste groups, numbering in the thousands.

 

[DominusNovus]

Armenian Genocide(why's this a trope here?)

I feel so old...

 

[Imperator Maximilianius]

Parts of Southern India having only Brahmins and Shudras doesn't tell us very much. This is because there are sub-groups within the four main caste groups, numbering in the thousands.

That sounds really complicated.

 

[Tjakari]

That sounds really complicated.

It is impossibly complicated, which is why those ideas of dharma just don't work in China.