WI: Hess mission in May 1941 a success

So, what happens if Hess's mission to Britain is successful. His 'peace mission' is met with interest in a disheartened Britain. In a Britain at that time doesn't know where good news could come from.

Churchill would be fervently opposed to any rapprochement with Germany, but suppose (however unlikely) he was out-voted.

What sort of 'peace' could have ensued. Peace was more to Germany's advantage than Britain's, so Germany could be generous.

It may be as little as cessation of hostilities, ending the blockade, trade, with a view to exchange of prisoners.

Personally I think it very unlikely, on the other hand - not impossible - OTL unlikely things did happen. So, given that it did, what else happens:
- Hitler happy - Stalin not, nor FDR - but more detail ??
 
The idea of rapproachment with Germany was pretty much a nonstarter as far as just about everyone not in Germany was concerned. The fact that Hitler had gone back on every agreement they had made was not a state secret in 1941, they would not be any more receptive to peace feelers than Churchill was.


Also, Hess had no backing from Hitler or anyone else in the Reich leadership, so I'm not sure such a mission would have even gotten past the initial "hi, let's get to talking" phase even if the British were interested in listening.
 
In a book on the myths and misconceptions of WWII, (on sale at the IWM so presumably not completely bonkers), I came across the notion that this is exactly what didn't happen; that the Hess peace mission carried terms that were so far from generous, being well down to the usual Nazi standard, that in fact it proved the last nail in the coffin of appeasement and rapprochement;

that in terms of internal politics, it was actually a gift to Churchill, finally convincing the doubters and those whose memories of the Great War stood out in sharp relief that there really was no possibility of compromise. And, more to the point, that Churchill allowed them to be read precisely because he knew they would have that effect.

For a successful peace mission you need far more generous terms than it seems the Nazis were willing to offer, and terms generous enough to be acceptable would be the dictionary definition of "far too good to be true".
 

tenthring

Banned
Let's make this more interesting. What peace terms would Britain accept in 1940 that would be minimally acceptable to Germany.

1) Complete withdrawal of Germany from France and the Low Countries. Their old governments are restored.

2) Puppet Government installed in "Poland" or some portion of it.

3) German annexations pre-1939 all ratified.

4) Germany withdrawal from Norway and Denmark.

5) End of the blockade. End of submarine warfare.

6) Some agreement on what is to be done with Alsace-Loraine.
 
Where does the conception of this as a serious peace mission come from? What I've read basically suggests Hess had a breakdown.
 
This wasn't serious peace offer, its termswere unfavorable and Hess was acting without authority from the Reich. He had essentially lost it.
 
There are two reasons why it would never work:

1. Hess had no authority to negotiate such a peace. He went off the reservation, and Hitler lost it when he heard the news (he apparently described it as one of the worst betrayals he had suffered). Hitler had no real incentive to make peace. Keep in mind that before Operation Barbarossa Hitler believed that the Soviet Union would be defeated in a few months (in his own words "one kick and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down"). There's no reason for him to make peace with Britain to focus on the Soviet Union, since he thought the Soviets could easily be defeated even with Britain in the war.

2. Even if Hitler had approved it (in which case he probably would have decided to contact the British by another method than having the Deputy Fuhrer fly a solo mission to Scotland) the British didn't want peace. It wasn't just Churchill who opposed him; by 1941 everyone but the most die-hard appeaser or Fascist didn't trust Hitler. Hitler had violated basically every agreement he had ever signed, and the British had no reason to think that he would keep to any new deal. In addition allowing Germany to dominate the Continent goes against the entire point of British foreign policy since Napoleon: to keep the balance of power in Europe so as to prevent anyone from being able to take out the British. Finally, Britain was no longer on the ropes by that point. With their defeat in the Battle of Britain Germany was in no position to launch an invasion of Britain and the Lend-Lease meant that Britain wasn't in any real danger of being unable to pay for the war or get aid.
 
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The idea of rapproachment with Germany was pretty much a nonstarter as far as just about everyone not in Germany was concerned. The fact that Hitler had gone back on every agreement they had made was not a state secret in 1941, they would not be any more receptive to peace feelers than Churchill was.
This. Walton wrote a trilogy (Small Change) with this premise but it didn't work for me, utterly implausible.

Also, Hess had no backing from Hitler or anyone else in the Reich leadership, so I'm not sure such a mission would have even gotten past the initial "hi, let's get to talking" phase even if the British were interested in listening.
Also true. Hess's flight is a truly wonderful seed for conspiratorial weirdness (linking it to the time displacement of Robert Victor Goddard and the British lunar mission of the 1930s for example) in RPGs but in reality it hadn't a hope.
 
I'm not convinced he had a 'breakdown', just as likely that in conversation with Hitler the wish of getting out of the war with Britain - that was going nowhere - neither can invade. Hess, saw it as an opportunity to do something useful - after all he wasn't doing much else.
I see Hitler's comments of the trip, as a natural camouflage - his reaction would have been totally different if it had been a success!

The Terms, in all honesty not sure what they were, yet it might have been an opening offer, if the British had made a counter-offer negotiations could have proceeded.

I still think it unlikely, yet it is one of those occasions - along with May/June 1940, when it may have been possible

A book I would recommend is Ten Days that Saved the West by John Costello. It covers the Hess mission, and the previous 'peace attempts' Halifax et al.
 
Where does the conception of this as a serious peace mission come from? What I've read basically suggests Hess had a breakdown.

This

My understanding was that he had become an addict and had been sidelined in Germany as a result.
 
What really happened with Rudolf Hess seems to be a popular recurring conspiracy theory. I remember reading an intriguing book several years ago which suggested that Hess' mission was sanctioned by Hitler, and that if he failed his insanity would be sold as a cover story (presumably to hide the fact the Nazi leadership had been dudded by British intelligence).

As an aside to the idea of a peace in this period, theoretically if a Japanese declaration of war had followed shortly after the Fall of France, but before Barbarossa (and no declaration of war against America), would that have been enough to convince Britain to jump out of the war? I concede it would be a very risky move for Japan to act in such a way whilst still consolidating its hold over Indo-China, but Pearl Harbour proves Japan's leaders were not acting rationally. Arguably, a declaration of war against Britain along the lines of Mussolini's famous "I only need a few thousand dead so that I can sit at the peace conference as a man who has fought" is more sensible than attacking Pearl Harbour in 1941.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: The book is The Hitler/Hess Deception.
 
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What really happened with Rudolf Hess seems to be a popular recurring conspiracy theory. I remember reading an intriguing book several years ago which suggested that Hess' mission was sanctioned by Hitler, and that if he failed his insanity would be sold as a cover story (presumably to hide the fact the Nazi leadership had been dudded by British intelligence).

I mean yeah, it's obviously a stock-in-trade of cranks and people with, uh, ideological axes to grind, but it also seems to be taken as read by some of the military buffs on here that it was a serious political manoeuvre. That seems... not a very sensible judgement based on everything I've read of it. I'm just wondering where that tank-buff reading of this derives from. Is this a History Channel thing?
 
I mean yeah, it's obviously a stock-in-trade of cranks and people with, uh, ideological axes to grind, but it also seems to be taken as read by some of the military buffs on here that it was a serious political manoeuvre. That seems... not a very sensible judgement based on everything I've read of it. I'm just wondering where that tank-buff reading of this derives from. Is this a History Channel thing?
To show why the idea of Hess being sent by Hitler is silly let's imagine you are Hitler in May 1941. You want to make peace with Britain. Do you:

A) Send Churchill, the King, or Eden a message asking them to open peace negotiations, with the end goal being a meeting between the two countries' foreign ministers

or

B) Send your deputy (although by that point his role was largely ceremonial) on a flight to Scotland (and risk him being shot down) to meet with a Duke who you think might be opposed to the war, hoping that he'll set up a meeting with the British government?

My point is that Hess's plan was so poorly thought out, complicated, and outside of the realm of diplomatic protocol that only a nut would have tried it.
 
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I'm not convinced he had a 'breakdown', just as likely that in conversation with Hitler the wish of getting out of the war with Britain - that was going nowhere - neither can invade. Hess, saw it as an opportunity to do something useful - after all he wasn't doing much else.
I see Hitler's comments of the trip, as a natural camouflage - his reaction would have been totally different if it had been a success!

The Terms, in all honesty not sure what they were, yet it might have been an opening offer, if the British had made a counter-offer negotiations could have proceeded.

I still think it unlikely, yet it is one of those occasions - along with May/June 1940, when it may have been possible

A book I would recommend is Ten Days that Saved the West by John Costello. It covers the Hess mission, and the previous 'peace attempts' Halifax et al.

Honestly, Hess's mission seems to be one of those stranger than fiction scenarios. I mean when you read about the incident, the authorities that picked him up only seemed interested in humoring him. The guy had come down by himself on a parachute, even if Britain was serious about negotiating a peace settlement, they would do it through normal diplomatic channels. Hess was acting without authority from Berlin, so why on earth would Britain (in the scenario where they wanted to make peace) do it through him? It'd be like trying to buy a car by going through the seller's brother.
 
IIRC the theory was not that he would be negotiating with the Government of the UK, but with alleged high placed elements of the British establishment who were sympathetic to the Nazis and, allegedly, had the appetite and power to remove Churchill by force.

It was a very intriguing theory and argued quite well in that book I mentioned. I agree it is highly implausible Hitler would knowingly risk his Deputy even if the "plot" appeared to be highly credible. Still, it is a fascinating part of history and is indeed stranger than fiction.
 
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