WI: Hernan Cortez and his men are massacred by the Aztecs

[Malta]

And then what? A late stone age civilization will manage to defeat XVI century European colonial power?
If 500 Europeans could topple Aztec Empire mustering 200.000 men for their couse, it would be interesting to see what 10.000 strong European army would do.

You...missed my point. I'm not advocating the survival of the Aztec Empire actually, it seems quite likely they will collapse (granted its not impossible that the Aztecs could rise up later, I am much more a Purépecha/Tarascans fan), but for the various Mesoamerican peoples their is a chance. What I am suggesting is the failure of Cortes (and likely the ejection of the Spanish from Veracruz or parts of it), and Charles V turning his attention elsewhere (either restricting or bringing the hungry eyes of the Conquistadors with him) for a time allowing for the Mesoamericans to play catch-up. Not the kind of 5 Year Catchup but a period much longer of 100 years or more.

So a situation in Mesoamerica and the HRE has to occur that will leave the Mesoamericans with at least nominal control (the Tarascans notably became vassals of Spain despite the fact that they equalled the Aztecs in power and for a few years were able to survive unravished untill intrigue of a certain Tarascan noble brought the Spanish in) and preservation of their culture (though subject to Missionary activity) and Spain being happy enough to not outright conquer them, get their gold and convert some souls and Charles V would be happy. While at the sametime through this trade/tributation the Mesoamerican and South American cultures learn the technologies of the Europeans and get some resistance enough to beat back the Europeans in the future. Of course when I mean Europeans I mostly just mean the Spanish, nothing to say that the English or the French could help out the Mesoamericans.

 

[Riain]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the effect of Cortez's, and a decade later Pizzarro's, breathtakingly audacious treachery. Cortez and Co. showed themselves to be formidable fighters and once they were given respect because of this they constantly said they just wanted to be envoys from their King to the Montezuma. So they went into the Imperial presence as formidable envoys, not at the head of a conquering army, and then decapitated the Aztec leadership and momentarily paralysed the empire.

So the original question is if the Aztecs decided to engage Cortez in battle early with a powerful army, perhaps after he had allied with Talaxa and undertaken a massacre at Cholula, what would happen? Well I'd imagine that the 1000 Talaxans would suffer greatly and the Spanish too would suffer hundreds of casualties, mainly wounded of course. After this the Spanish would face a march of almost 100 miles to get to Tenotichlan, being ambushed all the way. In this circumstance I highly doubt Cortez would be in the position to decapitate the Aztec Empire, and without Cortez's example Pizzarro wouldn't get the idea either.

 

[Dan Reilly The Great]

What about the possibility of an altercation in the early stages of the expedition? Suppose Cortez and a good portion of the leadership of his force are killed during a fight that occurs before he gets too far inland? With much of their leadership gone and their ships scuttled, perhaps the survivors who are horrendously outnumbered decide to negociate some sort of surrender with the Aztecs? Then the aztecs learn how to build crossbows from captured spanish weapons combined with being taught by captured conquistadors. Also the spaniards can teach them about european tactics and thus help them prepare defenses.

Fast forward a few years, the knowledge that the Aztecs learned could have easily reached the Inca's and other mesoamerican civilizations, their leaders could have surmised that areas where the europeans have been are struck by devastating plagues and decide to take measures to avoid areas where the spaniards or other european explorers have been. They might even be able to figure out how to build primitive cannons. by the time the Aztecs have been defeated the spaniards or HRE come to a wizened and toughened Incan Empire that can fight them to a standstill.

Very lucky for the mesoamericans, yes, but hardly more than Cortez was IOTL.

 

[Typo]

"Picking up the other guy's ways" was a trademark of native American Indian resistance. They picked up horses very damn early, with great relish and mastered the art of horsemanship in an admirable amount of time. They also easily adopted guns around the time guns started becoming more useful than noisemakers, and before that found many countermeasures. All over the Americas, they learned that to survive arquebus volleys they simply had to hit the ground as the shooters ignited the powder, and then chopped them up before they could reload. Horses were countered by taking advantage of rocky or wooded terrain. Modern cliches, really, about them being all that superstitious about the new technology.

However, AmInd, you overestimate the value of Spanish technology. The only thing advantageous to the Aztecs would be the steel itself. The crossbows, swords, pikes, etc, would be adopted, but the armor and guns would be little more than new treasures to add to their collections. The best use for steel for them would be to use it to tip their darts and arrows, and to make steel/iron flakes for their swords instead of obsidian flakes.

Learning how to make iron (steel was probably not possible) will not be enough to save the Aztec.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Never said it would, just that it'd help. And the point, as Tomb mentioned, isn't having the Aztecs survive as an independent state, but just having them survive as a culture and a people. Cortez's death would certainly go a long way to helping that outcome.

And Emera, I've told you once and I'll tell you again. Cortez did not conquer the Aztecs with 500 men, he did so with an army of 200,000+. Get your facts straight. I could forgive your ignorance earlier but after you've already been told you continue to spout that same old myth. It's wrong and it's silly and it's sad that people still believe that.

In response to Dan, the most likely time your idea would occur would be when they had to cross the land of the Tlaxcallans, however I insist that La Noche Triste being pulled off more successfully would be better as they had a chance to kill or capture not just all the Spaniards, but much of their allies as well. They could kill two birds with one stone: Destroy the combined armies of Cortez, Narvaez, and the various native allies in one night. Such a move would go a long way to boosting morale, and it is likely they'd keep valuable prisoners who know how to work the technology and stuff. They won't be instantly churning out steel and guns, but it'd go a long way to understanding the enemy at least.

 

[AmIndHistoryAuthor]

1....and then the native Americans drove the defeated White Man into the sea and he never came back.
Oh wait, they didn't. In fact they were utterly and totally destroyed, with not a shade of anything that could be considered equal to any European colonial state.

2. Why ? The Aztec Empire would be troubled by epidemics, internal strife and conquistadors. There would be few large cities to begin with.
If the Spanish kings held natives in such high esteem, why were they virtually exterminated in Spanish mines through essentially slave labour ? Hmmm?

Oh brother. Like others point out, you just refuse tro see what's right in front of you.

1. Start with the obvious. Most Latin Americans are predominantly Indian or Indian ancestry, as is much of the cultures.

There were Indian states that survived for quite awhile, all the way into the last half of the 19th century, most notably the Miskito and Mapuche nations.

2. Obviously you didn't even bother to read.

There were Aztec blacksmiths in a very short time, only a few years after conquest.

And since it's pointless to talk with someone who doesn't listen and is even proud of not listening. I'm done trying to get through to the willfully deaf, esp one who doesn't seem to read anything written after 1950.

"Virtually exterminated." My god, that's ignorant.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

You guys realize Cortez didn't overthrow the Aztecs with just a couple hundred men, right? He did it with a couple hundred men allied with a giant Indian army. The Aztecs weren't idiots, and steel armor and weapons aren't the end-all be-all. They came up with perfectly good tactics to deal with that, just like European peasants did, and they would continue to develop strategies for coping.

The issue is the nature of their empire and the hostility of many people ruled by it, not the Spanish.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

The issue is the nature of their empire and the hostility of many people ruled by it, not the Spanish.

Exactly; IMO the Aztecs were living on borrowed time anyway when the Spanish showed up. The first sign of weakness would have been enough to turn all of the Aztec's subject peoples against them; if it hadn't been Cortes it would have been something else like the plagues.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Exactly; IMO the Aztecs were living on borrowed time anyway when the Spanish showed up. The first sign of weakness would have been enough to turn all of the Aztec's subject peoples against them; if it hadn't been Cortes it would have been something else like the plagues.

Unfortunately for most of them ITTL, they would be just as heavily affected by plagues, and they just lost a huge portion of their armies in Tenochtitlan. The only nations that would not be damaged, at least not much, would be the Tarascans and the Maya.

 

[Emera78]

1. Start with the obvious. Most Latin Americans are predominantly Indian or Indian ancestry, as is much of the cultures.

Doesn't change the fact that they were conquered and part of colonial empire.

There were Indian states that survived for quite awhile

Doesn't change the fact they were eventually conquered. And mostly their survival was dependent on being unimportant.

"Virtually exterminated." My god, that's ignorant.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote-not that Native Americans were exterminated and ceased to exist, but that the working conditions in Spanish mines and plantations were often virtual extermination for the local people.

Cortez did not conquer the Aztecs with 500 men, he did so with an army of 200,000+.

If 500 rag-tag adventurers and soldiers could raise an army of 200.000(I doubt that number) then I can imagine what uprising would an organised 10.000 army help to create.

They might even be able to figure out how to build primitive cannons.

How ? A stone age civilization jumping to cannons ? This isn't a computer game

by the time the Aztecs have been defeated the spaniards or HRE come to a wizened and toughened Incan Empire that can fight them to a standstill.

No stone age civilization was able to defeat colonial powers. I see no reason why this would be different here. At best Incas can hope to become integrated into Spanish Empire as vassal state with a figurehead ruler.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

If 500 rag-tag adventurers and soldiers could raise an army of 200.000(I doubt that number) then I can imagine what uprising would an organised 10.000 army help to create.

Not any more, genius, you obviously have no idea how it all worked. Cortez got the Totonacs, Tlaxcallans, etc, to raise their whole armies. Why the hell do you think more Spaniards=more Indians? Really? You are clearly not thinking any of this through.

And it seems you do not understand what anybody is saying, or you choose willingly to ignore everybody.

And btw, most of us mentioned that said states would become vassals, just intact vassals instead of ruined survivors like OTL. Geez, talk about proof of you not reading anything.

 

[Emera78]

Cortez got the Totonacs, Tlaxcallans, etc, to raise their whole armies

So 500 men could topple a whole Aztec Empire and recruit such an army ? I don't see it surviving for long, even without Cortez. And after all there was no shortage of people wanting to be conquistadors.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Ugh, you still don't get it. Just read a damn history book, will you? Really, basic stuff here.

 

[Malta]

I've settled it then, I'm making a actual Timeline for events.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

I've settled it then, I'm making a actual Timeline for events.

How successful do you plan on the conversion in your TL being? Because in OTL it was arguably not very successful at all. In a lot of parts of Mexico people still pray to the old gods, just considering them saints subordinate to The God, or something like that. And they still have a lot of pre-Columbian rituals and celebrations practiced there.

 

[Malta]

How successful do you plan on the conversion in your TL being? Because in OTL it was arguably not very successful at all. In a lot of parts of Mexico people still pray to the old gods, just considering them saints subordinate to The God, or something like that. And they still have a lot of pre-Columbian rituals and celebrations practiced there.

Syncretism. It will be a force but I am debating how major widespread it will be.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

So 500 men could topple a whole Aztec Empire and recruit such an army ? I don't see it surviving for long, even without Cortez. And after all there was no shortage of people wanting to be conquistadors.

He raised the army in order to topple the Aztecs, not after toppling them. A huge army of Indians joined Cortez and marched on the Aztec capital. If Cortez had attacked with his men alone, he would have lasted five minutes.

If the Aztec empire had been unitary instead of on really shaky ground when Cortez showed up, we'd be talking about the mysterious disappearance of Cortez 500 years ago.

 

[AmIndHistoryAuthor]

I for one am really annoyed with the silly claim the Aztecs or Incas were "Stone Age". Again it shows far too many people are still reading some really out of date and sometimes outright racist books.

"Stone Age" people don't routinely perform successful brain and eye surgery, have elaborate irrigation systems, trading networks, nor sophisticated political systems. (The last far more the case with Incas than Aztecs.)

 

[Emera78]

I am myself interested in many amazing acomplishments of Incas or Mayas, but the truth is they were in Stone Age.

Again it shows far too many people are still reading some really out of date and sometimes outright racist book

Handbook to Life in the Aztec World‎ - Page 212 Manuel Aguilar-Moreno - 2007 -

The Aztec had a very special interest in precious stones of allkinds. As their culture was primarily Neolithic (New Stone Age)

The Aztecs: new perspectives‎ - Page 8 Dirk R. Van Tuerenhout - 2005

For example, how could the Aztec sustain a city the size of Tenochtitlan using Stone Age technology and still be successful?

Aztecs and Spaniards: Cortés and the conquest of Mexico‎ -Page 49
Albert Marrin - 1986:

The Aztecs were still a Stone Age people.

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[Chengar Qordath]

Unfortunately for most of them ITTL, they would be just as heavily affected by plagues, and they just lost a huge portion of their armies in Tenochtitlan. The only nations that would not be damaged, at least not much, would be the Tarascans and the Maya.

The advantage the Aztec subject tribes would gain from the plague would definitely be a very temporary one; it could easily lead to a situation where, after the Aztecs are broken, there are no other tribes in good enough condition to take their place as the regional hegemonic power. The plagues could easily create exactly the sort of regional power struggle/vacuum that a colonial power like Spain could exploit with little trouble.

At the very least, the Spanish are likely to pick a faction to back with advisers and supplies in exchange for vassalage, and whichever tribe has Spanish backing is probably going to win.